On the topic of fibrosis and reversal...

On the topic of fibrosis and reversal... I'm offering this new thread so the information is readily visible. This has been discussed at length previously in many posts mainly with the focus on Nattokinase (CR 39 and 40 from 2005) and many posts on the topic of using NK to help lower clot risk as well as the CR 24 and 75 on Cardiac Fibrosis, but I wanted to mention proteolytic or systemic enzymes which are different from nattokinase.

Jackie



Since I didn't handle warfarin/coumadin very well when it was prescribed routinely for afib way back then, I began researching the use of enzymes probably around year 2000 to help reduce the tendency for blood clots during longer bouts of Afib. I learned about the enzyme, nattokinase, (which I began using) to reduce fibrin (as measured by fibrinogen levels) and also about other proteolytic or systemic enzymes such as found in popular products known as Wobenzym and Vitalzym from World Nutrition. They also have a stronger, professional-grade version of the Vitalzym with a history of getting rid of various types of fibrosis. [worldnutrition.net]

That led me to learning about another product developed by exercise physiologist, William Wong, ND, PhD who, at the time, was doing a series of audio presentations on his treatment of various types of fibrosis. He formerly worked with World Nutrition and then left to formulate is own (stronger) systemic enzyme product, Zymessence. [www.zymessence.com]

His short report titled "Fibrosis - The Enemy of Life" is worth reading
[www.totalityofbeing.com]

As is this one:
[www.totalityofbeing.com]

In one of his many reports, he says:

..." For a moment lets do some education on orally administered systemic enzymes. They have a 5 decade history of wide spread medical use in Germany, Central Europe and Japan with over 150 million patients in Europe alone having undergone enzyme therapy in the last 4 decades.

There are over 200 peer-reviewed studies proving the absorption, therapeutic action and total lack of toxicity (no LD-50) of systemic enzymes. Their primary action is anti-inflammatory, (though not through a COX 1 or Cox 2 action. The enzymes instead “eat” pro inflammatory cytokines). The enzymes also have a proven lysing action on all types of fibrosis and scar tissue leaving normal or endogenous tissue entirely intact and un-bothered. This is due to the body “tagging” excesses of fibrin as exogenous proteins. (The subject of protein tagging and its discoverer won the Nobel Prize in biology in the late '90's).

Entering the key words: systemic enzyme, serrapeptase, nattokinase, bromelain, pancreatin, papain, trypsin, chymo trypsin into the search engine at Pub Med will bring up some of the current research on systemic enzymes and their applications. A search in the “medical fields” section of www.mucos.cz will show abstracts of the extensive older research done with the first systemic enzyme blends of the 50's and 60's. It has to be said that there is nothing, no drug or substance, in either the allopathic medical world or in the natural health world that can remove scar tissue but highly fibrinolytic systemic enzymes." (end quote)

In one of Dr. Wong's audio presentations, he talked about a patient who had fallen into a waste ditch of toxic chemicals and as a result had crippling fibrotic tissue everywhere inside and out and was disabled. In obvious desperation, he sought help from Dr. Wong; and with vigorous treatment, he was able to become mobile. I recall he talked about the fibrotic damage to organs that were killing the patient. He also talked about a patient who had scar tissue as a result of abdominal surgery that caused severe pain and physical distortion of the spine from the scar tissue contraction. With time and the proteolytic enzyme therapy, she was pain-free and able to stand up straight and walk normally.

I'm mentioning this because 1) it's important to know there is help for fibrosis... whether it is cardiac or other areas of the body because managing the inflammatory response process is a key issue and 2) there may be afibbers who don't have insurance and can't consider ablation... or just prefer not to consider an invasive, surgical procedure, so using the stronger Zymessence enzymes is worth a try. Controlling the formation to begin with is the best strategy, obviously.

Used routinely as a preventive, systemic or proteolytic enzymes do manage fibrotic buildup in the body much of which is caused by what we know as 'silent inflammation' stimulated by a variety of culprits.

This can be important information for everyone and not exclusively afibbers.

Thanks Jackie for the informative links on proteolytic enzyme therapy which has many positive uses. There is no question that proteolytic enzymes can have a powerful anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic impact in many inflammation related conditions.

However, in our rather unique case where those of us who have purposely previously had scar inducing ablation procedures for the express purpose of laying down long lasting fully transmural scar or fibrotic tissue in specific targeted lines or focal spots while sparing most all of the contractile atrial muscle tissue, what if the strong and high dose proteolytic enzyme protocols required for serious scar removal are so effective at the job, as they, indeed, can be in some conditions, that we risk removing some, or all, of the hard-earned ablation lesion scars too, and thus possibly undo our ablation success??

I would think the odds of removing fully mature and transmural ablation lesion are very low, similar to the odds of reversing true mature fibrosis after the often long phase of reparative fibrosis is over, following full cellular atrial tissue death or apotosis. But the truth is I don't know for sure the answers to this question, but I would absolutely want to have some very solid reassurance based on real world modern day research that this is not the case before embarking on too aggressive of a program for high dose, high strength proteolytic enzyme therapy, if you have already had an ablation.

For those without an ablation it might work out well, but there is also the theoretical potential, I would suspect, of getting a partial effect that might inadvertently create new flutter or AFIB manifestations too, similar to the blanking period in reverse, where variable degrees of ablation scars are healing up at variable rates in different areas of atrial tissue thickness in the first three months post ablation, and thus might cause random new flutter or AFIB circuits to connect temporarily??

Perhaps if that were to occur, then you would just have to keep plugging away with the enzyme protocols and redouble your efforts in hopes of removing all remaining offending scar tissue contributing to the possible arrhythmia, and thus potentially fully reverse a mature largely fibrotic atrial substrate, however unlikely that might be too occur.

In any event, while it's all certainly worth exploring and looking into further for sure, I would nevertheless tread with caution as a former Afibber and ablation patient and definitely want some more info on the likely impact, if any, of these intensive protocols on strong ablation lesion scars at least in animal studies on RF ablations, before going this route for those with ablations on board already.

Okay, thats it for my short visit today to the forum, its back to the next AFIB Report issue as I'm about half way finished though still 5 to 7 days away from sending it out and being able to take a short breather before diving into the website redesign tidal wave starting this month.

Shannon

Jackie, thank you for important knowledge. From an informed view, AF is indeed curable, because the prime cause of AF is interstitial fibrosis, fibrosis being defined as "excessive collagen fibers" (i.e. greater than normal), and excessive collagen fibers will be removed by proteolytic enzymes, whether endogenous or exogenous (oral). As you point out, endogenous synthesis of proteolytic enzymes wanes with age, explaining why AF onset is age-related.

Shannon, electrical isolation of the pulmonary veins is not by scar tissue per se but rather the necrotized myocytes that no longer transmit electrical signals. Therefor, if removal of the scar tissue by enzymatic therapy occurs, it will not reduce the efficacy of PV isolation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2015 03:36PM by Moerk.

Thank you Moerk for the short, technical explanation about rendering the myocytes incapable of transmitting electrical signals. That's obviously the focus of ablation.

Shannon - when I had the first ablation, I recall asking Dr. Natale about concerns that enzymes would disrupt the purpose of the scar tissue generated by the ablation. He said it would not.

As related to Dr. Wong's historical treatment of patients.....if you think about the surgical procedures that generated the adhesions and extra scar tissue proliferations that caused post-surgical pain and constrictions in the patients Dr. Wong treated ... note that their external/internal scar tissue at the incision did not disintegrate and allow their bodies to open up and spill out the contents nor did it cause internal bleeding by opening the surgical scar wound where organs were removed.

Enzyme therapy would seem like a perfect approach for new afibbers to try before considering the ablation route and that way, it would remove any fear or doubt about whether the enzymes would negate the ablation 'scarring.' Of course, other influences besides fibrosis would have to be addressed concomitantly.
Useful for those who have no insurance or limited funds although the stronger enzymes are pricey.

Jackie