Sports and afib

I am new to this site and probably sound like it. My first encounter with Afib was 3 1/2 years ago. My doc at the time flicked it off. It has progressivly become worse. It is, I believe, Lone VMAF.

I am 57 lean, fit and love my sports - and for the past 2 months I have been sitting home, scared. Thankfully I found this site.

I also have a new MD in a high end clinic and she is working with me on such things as mineral testing, making sure my vagus nerve is not impeded, self conversion techniques, nutrition etc. and she is confident we will find a solution.

I am not going to quit some of these sports unless I am dead. For instance if I go for a bike ride or skiing, if I start to afib I can slow down and coast to a place where I can rest and go home.

The one sport that is really sending my into a depression is hockey. It is a huge part of my social life and all my friends are carrying on with pushing their hearts too high, the stupid locker room humor, the beer or wine afterwards and the comraderie that I so miss.

After having a full physical with the new doc a few weeks ago I asked her about hockey and she said to go ahead and play. But when I do, there is a certain peer pressure to take the next shift and I have done so while in afib, and it does not feel good.

As I am writing this I realize how stupid it sounds to even think about playing. Any thoughts??

Ron,

Welcome to afibbers.org. I am sure would rather not have joined! You may be interested in the following report [www.afibbers.org]

Unfortunately most of us have had to face a very tough decision at some point in our "afib career". Do I continue with my present lifestyle and suffer the consequences or do I change my lifestyle to minimize or perhaps even eliminate afib? I think you are at that point.

Hans

Thanks Hans, so much to learn. This type of afib seems to be associated at times with mild indigestion. It might start with a burb or a series of gurgles. I would guess that my heart might be a little larger than normal becuase of continual exercise over my life. Sometimes I seem to be able to control or convert the beast by diaphragm breathing where I push out my stomach on inhaling and vise versa.

But I am not always concisous of it and catch it, especially in the middle of the night. My stomach muscles don't relax as easy as say someone with a beer gut and I wonder if when there is any gas or bloating in my system if things simply get crowded in my abdomen and the erratic digestion motions are transferred to the heart and trigger arythmia.

I have had other sports related injuries where I have had to de-train, so to speak. In other words let the muscles relax so that things like a hip can realign. Maybe that is what I need to do with this.

RonB, Keep a record of your afib incidents and what you eat and drink to see if there is a pattern. My afib occurred at regular 28-30 day intervals, so it was possible to continue cycle racing in between the events. Of course dehydration was also an occasional trigger.

One way of bringing an afib incident to an end is to put the heart under severe stress. It doesn't always work but I had the impression that this forces the heart into sinus rhythm simply to meet the demands placed on it.
For example, I once tripped in my garden [when in afib]. I landed heavily and was winded. Once the gasping for air had subsided, I found I was back in normal rhythm.

Search the archives. There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum. Far more than any specialist of my experience, is able to muster.

Jeff

"I also have a new MD in a high end clinic and she is working with me on such things as mineral testing..."

I bet not. IIRC it takes a biopsy to test for magnesium, and they never think of iodine and selenium. Essential minerals really are essential.

William

William,

That is just pure nonsense! It does not take a biopsy to determine the magnesium content of myocytes (heart cells). See [circ.ahajournals.org]

Hans

So if I understand this right, I would get a better reading by having cells scrapped from under my tongue.

The doctor had a Routine Chemistry test at the local lab/hospital in Canada.

In addition they have taken a blood and urine sample using a kit called NutrEval that was sent to Genova Diagnostics somewhere in the US at a cost of $1000. (obsiously I am quite anxious to get some answers!). I do not yet have these results back.

I am assuming that this blood and urine test would not give me true "intracell" data.

Would you suggest that I look for a different test than the NutrEval?

Ron - NutraEval is a very comprehensive testing tool, but it won't give you the intracellular values of electrolytes. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get Exatest in Canada. You may as well assume you are low in magnesium and start supplementing.

The Exatest is scrapings of sublingual (under-tongue) epithelial cells. You can email Exatest to see if they have opened up to Canada; just check their website at [www.exatest.com]

Jackie

RonB,

To address your worry, don't. If your Dr. hasn't found any other heart issues, do what you want, when you want. The only down side is when you have an episode in the middle of cycling, hockey, etc., you get out of breath and have to stop or slow down. How often afib interrupts your fun and how it disrupts your life style are the issues.

Hydration and electrolyte replacement is critical, but it likely will not eliminate the afib. There are probably 100 different triggers that folks on this site think/know may have triggered their afib and we all seem to be a little different. The only one I ever found was more than one alcoholic drink. One, no problem, two = afib. Since afib didn't bother me much, there were times when I had two drinks because I preferred it over the afib.

I have always been into sports and a high level of fitness. I had afib for 11 years, the first 5 undiagnosed. Finally I got to a Dr. while in afib and it was identified. I spent 6 years on meds to manage the afib, but finally decided on an ablation which was 100% successful 5 years ago.

As you have discovered, if you are in great physical shape, afib is more of an inconvenience than a life changing ailment, but I have to admit that being afib free is pretty nice.

As Jeff suggests, keep a record on a calendar of your episodes and how long they last. This way you can see how your afib progresses, which may help guide you toward a possible ablation at some point.

Ron,
I sympathise with your condition. I played hockey until 2 years ago (but proper hockey on land not ice!!), which I loved (I'm now 60). For the last 10-15 years I had Lone Vagal AF which gradually increased in frequency. Initially it bothered me, but I moved to vets hockey (for the over 35's) which was at a slightly slower pace. Plus I would sometimes go on for just a half/be a sub. I found I could cope just about OK when in AF - the frequency of which had increased from one every 2 weeks or so to once every 3 days for 24 hours.

I tried magnesium, potassium and loads of other stuff as recommended on this site but none worked, I think you have to be pretty lucky and eating a poor diet in the first place for it to have any effect.

Endurance sport is bad for LVAF, but sport of a shorter duration (and possibly less intense) is good. I'm convinced I was less symptomatic than most because I was fitter.

My AF was rapidly progressing towards persistent, so I had an ablation whilst I was still paroxysmal. That was successful. I think being fit helped my recovery time. I have given up hockey now (too much wear and tear), but I find my bike times have improved slightly, but I don't push it as much as I used to and limit sessions to 1 hour max (most of the time!).

I would keep off beta blockers if they are prescribed, however, they kill your exercise tolerance.

Mark

After 25 years of fairly intense training and competition I had increasingly frequent and longer bouts of afib. Two ablations solved most of it. Finally, magnesium settled the rest. (I won't bore you with the long, but interesting magnesium story).

I strongly suspect that hard training, combined with genetic predisposition, led to my afib adventure. I also suspect I might have avoided the worst of this with more attention to hydration and supplementation.

But there's good news. I've been completely afib free for several years and have returned to pretty vigorous training (I don't care to compete anymore, but that's maturity, not heart rhythm!). The hard training seems to have no effect at all, other than a subjective feeling that my parasympathetic/sympathetic balance is better when I stay fit.

For me, at last, I'm back to normal and will forever more be judiciously careful about hydration, mineral intake and, again for me, near-religious devotion to 800mg of Doctor's Best every day.

Good luck. I hope you don't have to sacrifice your lifestyle to this irritating condition. Be persistent in finding what works for you.

Oh, by the way . . .

When I had regular and loooong (up to 18 days) afib bouts, I still exercised fairly hard. I just couldn't go as fast. My doctor was completely supportive of this.

Mark - you said: I tried magnesium, potassium and loads of other stuff as recommended on this site but none worked, I think you have to be pretty lucky and eating a poor diet in the first place for it to have any effect.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that nsupplements work only on people that have poor diets .... while that may be true in some cases, it definitely was not in my case... with the exception of not knowing about the importance of the potassium to sodium ratio.

It's more likely that rather than a poor diet, people aren't able to absorb the critical nutrients due to a variety of factors. Quite often it's an intestinal absorption issue.

I just responded to McHale in another thread a similar response:

[McHale - quite often when afibbers don't get improvement with the essential nutrient of magnesium, it can either be the form of the supplement, not high enough dosing over time and/or the fact that it is not able to be absorbed in that individual because of gut issues for various reasons including clogged gut tissue portals/receptors which prevents absorption through the gut wall.
If magnesium can't make it through, then many other key nutrients don't have access either. So, long term, it's not just about afib but the entire nutritional status of the individual. AF could just be a symptom or as often is stated..the carary in the coal mine.]

Most afibbers are deficient in magnesium. The other critical electrolytes work synergistally IF the magnesium can make it to the heart cells. Heavy exercisers lose a lot of the electrolytes and if they aren't replacing or if they are unable to absorb, then AF won't resolve. Even with ablation, that may be true, eventually...thus people are going for second and third ablations.

Jackie

Steve,

I would love to hear your story! I have learned so much from other people's success.

Please consider posting it.

Debbie

Thanks so much for the words of encouragment and success. I am sure you know how good it feels to click in to this site and find these kind of responses.

I am doing everything I can right now to correct things, but I went into afib last night at about 7pm and now at 5:00pm the next day I am still there. with a bloated stomach that always seems to coincide with afib.

I am trying to get my dose of mg up, but cannot seem to get above 400mg so far without causing disruptions.

Has anyone had success avoiding the stomach problems by using sublingual liquid mg?

In regards to sports, has anyone had any bad incidents while running the revs up while in afib? Or do you just push through and keep going despite being in afib or is it a good idea to stop and be calm until the beast goes away?
(I had a 30 minute cardio work out today and it did not bother me.)


Ron

Heavy aerobic demand on the heart while afibbing will now cause me to go into tachycardia. Because of that, I am careful to not stress the heart for any sustained period while in afib and will no longer pursue a demanding sport while in that condition. I do whatever I want when not in afib.

To Steve - I would be very interested in hearing your magnesium story. Also, what are you referring to when you say 800mg of Doctor's Best.

After 25 years of fairly intense training and competition I had increasingly frequent and longer bouts of afib. Two ablations solved most of it. Finally, magnesium settled the rest. (I won't bore you with the long, but interesting magnesium story).

Ron - when you say 'stomach' problems, do you mean bowel tolerance issues? The concerns of diarrhea with magnesium dosing are addressed in this report.

[www.afibbers.org]

Conderations are the form of magnesium you take and also consider trying the transdermal application of magnesium gel.... or as Steve has done, go to the IM injections to optimize intracellular stores of magnesium.

Jackie

The poison (bromine) always present in magnesium oil is suspected of being one of the causes of heart arrhythmia. There are others in it, amount unknown as the sellers are secretive about assays/contents.
I'm assuming that the gel is the same stuff - MgCl.

William

Several of you expressed interest in my response to magnesium. I'll write up a summary and post it when I have a bit of time over the weekend. Check back. I'll post as a new topic.

Cheers,

Steve N.

I know exactly what your going thru. I am addicted to Motorcross dirtbiking.

My doctor thinks I`m Nuts and suggested I see a shrink.

A month before turning 60 years old, I was looking forward to my birthday so I could blow off all the young kids around here. Actuallly I peaked my skills about 2 years ago. I got a track in my Yard. I rode almost every day.

Unfortunatly 3 weeks before my 60th birthday, I awoke with a horrible headache, slobering and left side partial Paralized, my wiffe clalled 911.
"this Stroke couldnt be happening to me, must be a bad dream"

The next day he doctors told me I had AFIB. which sent a blood clot to my Brain, spleen and kidney. I thought I was in perfect physicall condition. I hadnt gained a pound since high school 1969. I was pretty strict about my diet. Anything necessary to be the Senior Citizen Motocrosss Champion of the Wrorld.

I spent 2 weeks in the hospital and rehab, I stayed in the house for 2 months, went back to work (Construction) for 6 weeks, and then I slowly started riding again. I take it easy, avoid the big jumps and steep downhills.

Yesterday was a bad day. It started to pour down raining, I was deep in the valley, I couldn`t get any tracation to get up the steep muddy hill. I got so exhausted, I had to stop.. I waited about 20 minutes, drove out thru a small creek and took the road home. I felt fine, no problems with my heart beataing fast and no pain. other than having trouble getting out of bed this morning I feel great.

I just found this forum a few days ago. from what i have been reading, my AFIB is pretty mild compared to most folks..I get a few chest pains and find it hard to get out of bed in the morning but I always will find the time for riding..

Be careful playing hockey, The Canadian Kid up the street Concusion from Hockey is worse than my AFIb. Sid Crosby, ever heard of him.??

Good luck
John McDee.. Pittsburgh

William,

"The poison (bromine) always present in magnesium oil is suspected of being one of the causes of heart arrhythmia. There are others in it, amount unknown as the sellers are secretive about assays/contents."

Several years ago, I had the nigari I use to make "mag oil" tested with a mass spectrometer. I posted the results here <[www.afibbers.org];

I'll repost here:

.....&#956;g/L (ppb liquid)... &#956;g/g (ppm solid)
Ca 7241 1810.25
K 3292 823
Na 7841 1960.25
Fe 44.57 11.1425
Ni 9.24 2.31
Zn 5 1.25
Sr 10.3 2.575
Hg 0 0
no other metals (including arsenic and lead) showed up at all.

The Hg analysis was done separately.

Translating into percent
Ca 0.18%
K 0.08%
Na 0.20%
Fe 0.0011%
Ni 0.0002%
Zn 0.0005%
Sr 0.0010%
Hg 0%

The rest was Mg & Cl (or MgCl2) which is what it is supposed to be.

The results were clean enough for me. I take about 1.2 grams of magnesium per day from this. (Mitoku brand nigari [www.naturalimport.com]) This is around 50% of the magnesium I take daily.

George

Thanks George.
Wonder if I also need to buy a Geiger counter?

William

Would the halogens show in a mass spectrometer test? I know that there is bromine in seaweed, so there must be some in seawater...

William

Thanks for taking the time to post that info again, George.

Jackie

I searched for "nigari bromine" and found this:
[www.wholevegan.com]
[www.alibaba.com]
[www.alibaba.com]
[www.nrdcindia.com]

so nigari is also known as bittern.
Then [www.nrdcindia.com] says that "Sea bittern having at least 2.2 gm/lit bromine , is most suitable for the manufacture of bromine."

That would make the bromine content 0.22% (do not trust my shaky math), so when thinking of micro-nutrients is significant.

Bromine was and maybe still is used for making prisoners and soldiers easier to control, AKA social engineering, so now we can put on our conspiracy theory hats and have some fun.
No wonder the sellers of MgCl are shy of telling us the bromine content!

William

William, When I was in the Army they told us they put Salpeter in our food, whatever that is..

Bromine. i hope it has nothing to do with taking Bromeline, which is found in the Pineapple plant. I drink Pineapple juice every morning.

William,

In this Google books link [tinyurl.com], in one of the 3 samples of nigari, potassium bromide shows up at 0.7% of the solids and 0 in the other two. Interestingly in the sample with the KBr, the NaCl % was 25%. The NaCl in the other samples was 1.7% and 2.8%. In my sample, Na was 0.2%. Apparently the makers of the Mitoku nigari use a a process that is much more selective than those shown in the book. Again I've noticed only positive benefits from using it.

Bromine will show up in a mass spec assay. Whether it was omitted or just was not in the sample, I don't know. I asked for metals.

"Sea bittern having at least 2.2 gm/lit bromine , is most suitable for the manufacture of bromine" doesn't mean that this is the MgCl2 part of the solution. The question is whether the bromide molecules would precipitate out at the same time as those with magnesium. The traditional process involves serial evaporation. Generally the NaCl precipitates first. A general explanation is here: [nigarin.wordpress.com]

George

Hi George

That link does not work for me, but it's reasonable to expect bromine to be in seawater, so it will be in either the salt precipitate or the bittern; just a matter of how much.

What we notice is what we look for,and I never noticed anything bad when I was rubbing MgCl on skin, but the point is that it (bromine) stops iodine from curing afib by neutralizing iodine.

I guess bromine is a halogen, not a metal, so that's why it doesn't show in the mass spec assay.

It took time for me to get the MgCl, and the iodine as Magnascent worked anyway, seems that the heartbeat was and is more stable under stress, which is what we are after.

This should not continue to happen, as there should have been far more bromine intake than iodine, but current theory does not explain anything useful about micronutrients/poisons, so I'm just left with the experience of those who have used iodine, and recent experimenters are using Albion process magnesium glycinate, no longer MgCl.
I haven't yet read of a reason why they changed.

William

Here is the link expanded:

<[books.google.com];