K+ and Mg+ = diarrhea?

if taken at same time on empty stomach seems to happen a bit. this sound familiar to anyone.

Gregg, you should always avoid taking supplements on an empty stomach, you may have diarrhea problems if you do. How many mg of magnesium are you taking and how many mg of potassiume and how much do you take at one time? Sharon

Gregg
Yes, even taken after eating, the combo sometimes causes diarrhea and I have been on the same dose of each for a long time.
Cyndie

The diarrhoea might be lack of absorption of the magnesium in the presence of potassium as mentioned somewhere on this BB recently.

Joyce

Hi Gregg,

I recently posted this: <[www.afibbers.org]; relating to potassium interfering with magnesium absorption.

I cited this study: [jas.fass.org] "Feeding 2.4 and 4.8% K decreased (P<.05) Mg absorption by 24.4 and 61.2%, respectively. Preintestinal absorption of Mg was depressed linearly with increases in dietary potassium. Larger amounts of Mg flowed to the small intestine and were excreted in the feces when the high level of Mg was fed. "

Like humans, the pig has a digestive system which is classified as monogastric or nonruminant, so the study should have some applicability to humans.

I've taken potassium citrate pills (up to 15x99mg) with mag citrate pills (2x200mg) both 2x a day without issue. For years, 800 mg mag was sufficient to keep the afib in remission & without bowel issues. About 18 months ago I started ramping up the mag and now it is generally over 2 g/day, including 800 mg as glycinate plus a gram or so as citrate plus 200 mg as bicarbonate solution (as Waller Water). I've not gone back for this purpose & worked out the quantities exactly, but they are in in this range. The citrate is less bioavailable than the glycinate. I'm always on the edge of bowel tolerance so it is easy to push it a little too far. I've also dropped the K+ down to around a gram a day (2x5x99mg K citrate pills). Though I do liberally season my food with KCl powder 3x/day.

Much of my intake of supps is on an empty stomach. I also try to separate the mag citrate intake from the bicarbonate and from food.

George

excellent feedback.

if I take 500mg K+ powder at same time 200-400 mg mg glyc on empty somach i get some diarrhea yes. thanks for info guys

Gregg - I take either 200 or 300 mg magnesium glycinate at a time (capsules) and wash it down with 540 mg potassium gluconate in the powder form (pus water) ... sometimes with food; often without, and the bedtime dose is always without food. I do not experience the diarrhea problem.

This very well could be an absorption issue but first, I think that you should reduce your dosing to very low levels ... such as only 100 - 200 mg a day of the magnesium or stop both completely for a week or two. With the lower dose of magnesium, I'd use no potassium at all for a week or two until you are able to tolerate the magnesium. Often dosing instructions on various protocols are to give it a 'wash out period' and start again but titrate up very, very slowly. And it's always possible that you really have reached optimal IC magnesium levels and you definitely need to back off to a lower dose.

Did you have the diarrhea issues right away or is this cumulative over a period of time? And did it worsen with the addition of potassium?

Jackie

Gregg - 400 is too much to take at one time. I push it with 300 and get away with it (so far) but much of what I read says the body can only absorb only so much at one time and the result will be the 'dumping' of excess. A 200 mg dose is much more reasonable, but I still stand by what I mentioned in my previous post about taking a time out to let your body reset/adjust. Jackie

Jackie the additional K+ is what seems to be the reason for the diarrhea as when added it caused it. However this is intermittent and actually I now remember I ate 2 bananas last 2 days and maybe theres the problem? I really like bananas and not eating them for the K+ as much as enjoy them. Oh wow also someone brought plums to hosp yesterday and I ate a bunch of those. Sorry team I think I am realizing things after my post and do apologize LOL. Will monitor and please do excuse my memory loss LOL. Need to up my DHA Omega-3 it does appear!

Hi Jackie,

So your comment, "400 is too much to take at one time." triggered my memory of something I read of Herbert Mansmann MD about high oral magnesium intake.

Unfortunately, Dr. Mansmann died in 2007 (at 83) and the website of his Magnesium Research Laboratory of Thomas Jefferson University was taken down. For those who don't know, Dr. Mansmann was a pediatrician that spent the last 20 or 30 years of his career/life researching magnesium. Many of his writings are here [www.john-libbey-eurotext.fr] and here: [barttersite.org]

I was able to locate part of his old site (www.magnesiumresearchlab.com) in the Internet Archive [www.archive.org] using the "Wayback Machine."

Here is one on diabetes & magnesium [web.archive.org]

The following is a quote from Dr. Mansmann, from another site. I was unable to find the original quote on his site in the archive (which is tedious to use). The point is that Mansmann took 20 grams elemental Mg++ for over a year.

[www.thenhf.com]

"Dr. Herbert Mansmann Jr., Director of the Magnesium Research Lab,[xi] who is a diabetic with congenital magnesium deficiency and severe peripheral neuropathy, shares that he was able to reverse the neuropathy and nerve degeneration with a year of using oral magnesium preparations at very high doses. “For example it took me 6 tabs of each of the following every 4 hours, Maginex, MgOxide, Mag-Tab SR and Magonate to get in positive Mg balance. I tell people this not to scare them, but to illustrate how much I needed to saturate myself. Most will only need 10% of this amount. I was doing an experiment on myself to see if it helped my diabetic neuropathy. It worked, so I did it for one year, and I have had significant nerve regeneration. I could never have been able to do this with MgSO4 baths (Epsom Salt), since I could not get into and out of a bath tub” [xii]

“I was saturated at about 3 grams of elemental Mg per day, but went to 20 grams for over a year. I now take 5 grams, and stools are semi-formed, and the surrounding water is clear, 3-4 per day.” “Mg is very safe, since the gut absorption is regulated by serum Mg levels, and then the Mg stays in the gut and results in varying degrees of diarrhea. Then the dose is too high. Want soft semi-formed stools. Mine, while on high dosages of magnesium were liquid every 2-4 hours for 2 years, the electrolytes every month were normal, but for low potassium, part of my urinary Mg wasting, both,” wrote Mansmann.

Dr. Mansmann concludes, “I have had diabetic neuropathy for over 10 years. The most significant symptom is my neuropathic pain of burning feet, called erythromelalgia. With the aid of Mg I can completely suppress the symptom, but if my blood glucose level is acutely elevated, because of a dietary indiscretion, the pain flares in spite of an apparent adequate dose of Mg. It goes away with extra Mg gluconate (Magonate) in an hour or so in either case. Without the Mg it will last for six plus hours, even though the blood glucose level is normal in about two hours.” “It is my belief that every one with diabetes should be taking Mg supplementation to the point of one’s Maximum Tolerated Dose, which is until one has soft-semi, formed stools. In addition, anyone with neuropathy, without a known cause, must be adequately evaluated for diabetes and especially those with poorly, slowly, healing foot sores of any kind. Since the use of Mg is safe I see no reason that this should not be “the standard of care”.[xiii]"

Anyway, Dr. Mansmann's daily intake of 20 grams elemental Mg++ puts my 2 grams/day to shame. Also puts a high upper limit on what is possible.

Cheers,

George

emphasis for those still worried about "magnesium overdose":"
“I was saturated at about 3 grams of elemental Mg per day, but went to 20 grams for over a year. I now take 5 grams, and stools are semi-formed, and the surrounding water is clear, 3-4 per day.” “Mg is very safe, since the gut absorption is regulated by serum Mg levels, and then the Mg stays in the gut and results in varying degrees of diarrhea. Then the dose is too high. Want soft semi-formed stools. Mine, while on high dosages of magnesium were liquid every 2-4 hours for 2 years, the electrolytes every month were normal, but for low potassium, part of my urinary Mg wasting, both,” wrote Mansmann."
PeggyM

George - I don't doubt Dr. M's experiences and personal observations but I doubt that he used all 20 grams at once, initially...undoubtedly worked up to that number. Plus, as mentioned, had diabetes.. which also limits the amount of Mg that is absorbed due to the damaged Mg receptors... Coupled with the wasting problem, that's an different case entirely. So, for the normal, everyday generic "afibber, " I don't view his example as what we would consider typical at all.

However, it does serve to illustrate, as you mention, one individual's experience with tolerating high-dose magnesium.

Jackie

Gregg - well it could be that the potassium supplement pushed you over the edge along with the extra fruit. If you can duplicate that regularly, then you can sort out which is the culprit. Often with a lot of fruit sugar plus the extra fiber, people experience diarrhea until they acclimate to an intake that high. This is that biochemical individuality or uniqueness we talk about so frequently.

Jackie

Hi Jackie,

Did not mean to imply that Dr. M took 20 g at one time. However he mentions taking doses every 4 hours. If he got up in the middle of the night, that would be 6 doses/day or 3.3gr Mg++ per dose. I'm not suggesting this is normal or standard, just to give the concept that this is possible. Even at his 5 grams/day, that would 0.83 gr Mg++ per dose, assuming the same 4 hour schedule. My own schedule is around 1 gr Mg++ within a 2 hour window, 2x/day.

George