Science in AF cure

The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses. [en.wikipedia.org]

Forum contributor Steve Carr employed science to gain knowledge and AF cure, as have The Anti-Fib and GeorgeN, although GeorgeN calls cure ’remission‘ (not helpful for readers in my view), his reason being stopping his curative nutrition regimen brings return to AF. PeggyM also gained cure, and asks GeorgeN a perfect question:

About a cure consisting of being able to discontinue electrolyte supplementation, does that mean that scurvy is not cured unless one is able to discontinue intake of vitamin C-containing foods? George? [www.afibbers.org]

My definition of ‘cure’ is not ambiguous: Permanent return to normalcy from an abnormal condition. AF is a system abnormality most often caused by abnormal nutrition and anti-nutrients, curable over time by application of science-derived knowledge, the cure thus obtained maintained by proper nutrition. A return to improper nutrition will, inexorably, bring return to Square One on the AF game board.

With great appreciation for PeggyM’s work in harboring the many accounts of cure in 'Conference Room Session 61', my intent is to further her accomplishment by providing scientific understanding. In sum, AF is a symptom of malfunction of a complex biophysical system, the body’s innate healing system, operating continuously and perfectly since Life’s Day 1 or we could not be here. As with all systems, the healing system is amenable to analysis, understanding and correction.

Today, with many years of science-derived knowledge of the body's healing systems, and many tools available such as oral enzymes to augment the body's endogenous enzymes, AF cure should be accomplished in brief time. Science being about data, AF's most important objective data derives from measures of the myocytes' electrolytes [www.exatest.com] and from the 12- lead ECG. Ideally one should learn to interpret the ECG printout as most "health care professionals" are ill equipped to do so. There are many internet resources, e.g. [ecg.utah.edu]

"AF's most important objective data derives from measures of the myocytes' electrolytes www.exatest.com"

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but how sure are we that the scrapings off of the inside of a mouth are similar enough to Heart Tissue cells? I know some sort of study was done showing this? Just asking if anyone care cares to voice an opinion as to how much confidence we can place in this test?

Here’s the study published in Circulation 1995 confirming the reliability of the comparison.


[circ.ahajournals.org]

From the '70's and on I have spent many happy hours perusing the Exatest files for knowledge, partly because my work was somewhat involved with the space flights for which the test was developed. I have long been convinced of the test's reliability and consider it an essential first step in a scientific approach to AF cure

In the LH column of the opening page [www.exatest.com] there is a link to Published Research [www.exatest.com] (21 papers spanning 1987 - 2009)

Here in PDF format and highlighted is the '95 paper Jackie cited [www.exatest.com]

Morek:

There is probably no one as dedicated to eating the right diet, supplements and making sure the electrolytes were optimal than Jackie, that wasn't enough, as you probably know she has had 3 ablations, uses the exacta test, that is no cure.

Peggy will tell you that she had very few episodes of AF, her AF was not like many that come here with AF every week, few times a month. I don't know if she still gets AF, perhaps she will tell us.

From my readings of this Forum these last many years I have come to believe that AF like Cancer is more virulent in some people, I appreciate what you are doing, however, there is no cure for AF right now, doctors are not even sure why some people get AF and others don't, they don't know when in an episode what stops it, when I am in an AF episode, it stops after about 12 hours, doctors don't understand why it stops. Many people are on a very bad diet, are heavy, no exercise yet do not get AF. It appears that the more fit get AF, how do you answer that?

AF also does run in families, my mother had it as did my Aunt, it isn't diet because I don't eat like my mother did. Runners, basketball players even a president and a leader of Britian have had AF. Any operation on the heart can cause an episode of AF.

All I have to say in closing is Good Luck Man

Liz

Ive been hoping to put off addressing this issue until after the AFIB Report is wrapped up in the coming number of days to spare me any more delays, but this thread needs a response now, in my view.

Use of Magnesium as an often important adjunctive therapy. absolutely we agree wholeheartedly! But promoting Magnesium deficiency as the core cause and restoration the a prime, and even easy, 'cure' is absolutely not supported by our over 16 years of experience as the first and foremost website to promote Magnesium and potassium use, among a host of other life style and risk factor improvement protocols. Plus, when needed, an expert ablation process too as our confident best roadmap for success for the largest number of afibbers.

Magnesium, of course, has a key role as a very important, and in some cases a vital component of a successful overall comprehensive treatment in our recommendations for afibbers everywhere, But while individual readers of this forum are certainly free to believe, follow and discuss whatever ideas and concepts interest them and they feel are relevant, as the owner now and editor of the website and forum, it falls on me to determine where the line must be drawn as far as what concepts we can support and promote on the main forum.

For all of magnesiums wonderful properties and very important role in heart as well as total body health, it is NOT by any way, shape or means a universal cure for AFIB in my view!

I could not be more thrilled for you Mork that you are no longer suffering from AFIB and it's what we most wish for all of our readers here. Though I have not had the chance to read all of your posts here so far, the very little I have gleaned about your actual AFIB history is that after developing AFIB at some point in the distant past you have not had any symptomatic episodes that you are aware of at all for 10 years, largely from what you credit to be a cure from ongoing Magnesium repletion guided by Exatest results, is that about right? If you have shared substantially more than that about your own AFIB experiences and past, forgive my oversight here as I simply cannot keep up with every post these days.

We have all been right there too for many years on the importance of incorporating a dedicated and robust mineral and other key nutrient repletion program as part of our recommended best practices to effectively deal with AFIB. As noted above, this website was the first on the web to vigorously research and promote that idea over 16 years ago, and has championed those principles of first making a concerted effort to investigate and replace, any key biochemicals in our bodies that have gone missing or are likely to be deficient.

This key primary step is almost invariably the first, as well as an ongoing, recommendation for each person who comes here to continue with along with other important life style and cardiac risk factor reducing strategies and, when and if these first steps prove insufficient to effectively quiet the beast , then the inclusion of an expert ablation process is often recommended as the next, often watershed step, in a truly holistic and integrative approach to putting the genie back in the bottle to the best of our abilities. And all the while being open to utilizing ALL the best tools available to us whether they come from the natural or allopathic side of the same coin.

While I very much appreciate the various links and theories about magnesium's potential role in AFIB that you have shared here Mork, none of them are at all new or shed some dramatic new angle on the subject such that it might rewrite what we have learned from the many years of own in-depth real world exploration of this very topic, and from the many collective years from the school of hard knocks on this forum as well.

My net experience with Magnesium is one of great respect for its powers and utility in both helping to quiet an ectopic heart, but also calm nerves and sooth muscles and even clarify thinking. Magnesium, as you know, is a required component for over 300 key biochemical processes, so obviously it is a vital nutrient.

But the numbers of people who have come through here and made a real effort at discovering if Magnesium alone or in combination with other nutrients would be their golden key to AFIB freedom, and that have been unequivocally successful long term are comparatively few indeed.

I have no doubt that some people will, in fact, find their AFIB remit after restoring magnesium deficiency alone, all though only on occasion have I seen perhaps a a handful at most that claim that magnesium alone was the key element for them in what at least at the time had been a successful longer term break from AFIB for those afibbers. But consider too that in randomized control trials it is never sufficient for just a modest number of a given drug or procedure study derive either complete remission or some benefit, but a clear statistically significant benefit from the active study arm vs the controls is typically needed to call the drug or process a success, much less a cure.

And from the salutary effects I too have experienced, including that full 5 years of near total freedom from AFIB from not just magnesium but a host of nutrients and other protocols, and from the benefits I still gain from my daily intake of magnesium every day over the past 13 years, I can easily accept that this important mineral can well be the missing link for at least some, even if relatively few, people.

But implying that the still relatively modest number of people who posted positive results at the time Conference room 61 was posted, are now 'cured' by magnesium when they reported success at that time from a variety of protocols including most of them taking magnesium, and when we have heard nothing from a large number of these folks for years now, is indeed a very optimistic definition of a cure, and begs the question how many breakthroughs, if any , might you have had that still fall within your cure definition?
George could join the 'cured club' too then on those grounds and truly deserves it if any one does with his investigative smarts and dedication but he knows better as well and is happy enough with the success he continues to enjoy without reaching for labels.

Also Steve who also has have almost two years of success not with magnesium which he found ineffective largely in his case and that of his father, but did find great results with Calcium avoidance. Vitamin D in the 70ng/ml range and lots and lots of organic raw cranberries. I find that protocol more likely a candidate than magnesium alone, but like with Anti-Afib who is now pronounced by you as cured too after what was it, a year or a bit longer without any flippies? Which is far too short a time to be even considering another cure stat.

It almost sounds like reaching to fit people into a favored theory, which needless to say is hardly consistent with the scientific method. Again I'm not trying to degrade magnesiums potential value in AFIB care at all, nor deny your own great outcome which may well have largely been mediated by magnesium in your case, but rather I'm trying to keep it real within the reality so many of us have experienced first hand to convey what the majority can likely expect from our own collective experiences. But I realize too how hard it is to step back and see a broader view when a given person suddenly has long term success and it may be due mostly to one particular agent in their case. It can be very hard not to then project a universal cure and truly feel on a mission to spread the word.

I went 5 years of golden almost total silence with the Strategy before the beast came roaring back with a vengeance and no amount of Mag and Potassium could put Humpty dumpty back together again. A good number have had similarly long breaks before the wheels came off the wagon again with the exact same supplement intake that had been associated and no doubt very much did help quiet things done for a good long while before as before.

More often, in our experience, the best results seem to come from a combination of magnesium and other nutrients and other avenues as we all know from our more comprehensive Strategy protocol combined ultimately with an expert ablation process. But we urge everyone to find out first if they indeed can put this behind them with the natural protocols first and foremost. Yet even with all the beneficial impact the Strategy can and does bring, the numbers of people who have reported truly long term total success are still a very modest percentage of all those who have given the protocol a real dedicated effort over at least 6 months to a year and often much longer. Nevertheless, many more report at least partial benefit and that is certainly very worthwhile.

However, if Magnesium was truly THE core missing link, and not far more likely just one of a number of key secondary, tertiary or even further down the line influences in a very complex and constantly variable biochemical/physiological/genetic imbalance, we would have seen a far far greater response than we have with far fewer of us having had to resort to an expert ablation process to finally gain the upper hand and restore long term NSR.

Keep in mind too, Mork, that nearly every EP and Cardio who has been around the block can share with you stories of at least a handful of their patients who had aggressive AFIB for X amount of time and then suddenly and seemingly spontaneously went into remission and never had another episode!

It is not at all common, but it does happen, perhaps not much less frequently that those who 'apparently' find a 'cure-like' remission from Magnesium repletion alone long term? That reality must be acknowledged as a possible factor by all those who suddenly stop afibbing when they happen to be doing something new. If they start and stop the new agent with AFIB returning and leaving again consistently in response, then you have a much better clue that it wasn't just a spontaneous remission that one is crediting something else they just happen to be using at the time as the responsible agent.

Im not at all suggesting that magnesium is little more than a placebo, nor that taking magnesium alone is no more likely to work to any greater degree than the random odds of having your AFIB spontaneously disappear for very long periods including the rest of ones life. But by the same token, when you try to insist here that AFIB is a magnesium deficiency disease comparable in ANY way at all to Scurvy being a Vitamin C deficiency, that comparative analogy totally comes unglued and is not at all comparative!

Vitamin C is well known as an almost Universal cure for Scurvy, your odds of being almost on deaths door and then recovering from just enough Vitamin C absorption occurs with very high odds of success because Scurvy truly IS a Vitamin C deficiency disease .. period! And yet, I can count on one hand the numbers of people who can even just claim anecdotally that their AFIB went to sleep for good once they took enough magnesium!! This, trying to equate Scurvy and Vitamin C with our long experience of Magnesium alone and AFIB .. taking into account all magnesium's beneficial effects .. is a very very long projection Im afraid and a poor analogy indeed.

Nor am I at all arguing that AFIBs core cause is not likely a deep-seated metabolic imbalance that is driven, triggered or influenced to one degree or another by any number of nutritional, hormonal, substrate remodeling and/or scarring issues long term, but its very unlikely to come down to being fundamentally a magnesium deficiency disease at its core.

We require MUCH higher standards of evidence than that on this website before we start talking about a real potential 'cure; or of a 'core fundamental cause' of AFIB!

And The reason I'm so loath to call something a universal cure when it clearly is not, is that it strains credibility and then many of the physicians who I and other are trying to interest in using magnesium and other such natural agents too as part of a broader treatment palette, then get turned off the whole idea when they see a so claimed scientific method being used in such a fast and loose manner. And thus, stretching the case beyond magnesiums already important role it can very much have, often dies more harm than good in the process.

I would love nothing more than if even a significant minority of Afibbers could stop the beast in its tracks by only having to ingest enough magnesium to get their IC mag into a more optimal range on the EXAtest!

Ive done at least 10 EXA-tests in the past ( when I still had active arrhythmia) and they were a very valuable tool in my quest for freedom from AFIB.

In fact, it was Dr Burt Silver, one of the key developers and owner of EXAtest who, after carefully reviewing all of my Exatests together strongly advised me to get that LAA isolation ablation .. a fact that was was already obvious by then, three months prior to my LAA isolation ablation. when he said "Shannon you have a complex scenario and I highly recommend you go get that ablation ASAP as you are not going to be able to get your flutter fixed with electrolyte balancing.

I had been shocked 14 times in 14 months all the while taking boat loads of magnesium in the form of IV Myers Cocktalls with 4 grams Mag Sulfate once or twice a week for 9 months straight PLUS IM injections of 2 grams Mag Sulfate 5 days a week PLUS 700mg oral magnesium Glycinate and finally 25 sprays of Ancient Minerals topical Magnesium every morning after my shower!

That dosing finally got my very low IC mag levels up into decent range at 39 and I was taking sufficient potassium carefully guided by Cardymeter daily testing such that I never drifted above 5.0 serum K equivalent and keep my levels above 4.0K on the lower end.

Nevertheless, just as Dr Natale had told me 4 years earlier, that no matter what I do, until I get this last flutter circuit around my LAA addressed and put to sleep I would continue to have more frequent flutter breakthroughs, once the flutter episodes started in ernest after my persistent AFIB was put to sleep for good in my index ablation of 2008. He was right on the money with both his prediction that I would not have AFIB again and yet that Ineould need one more next time touch up to isolate my LAA to give me long term freedom from arrhythmia.

From the 5 years of near total success with the whole Strategy protocol before that first ablation, and that really was a big help then, I thought I knew better and could somehow figure out just the right mag and potassium dosing and just the right formula changes etc etc to recover my NSR again and so I let it drag on a good year or two longer tinkering away than I should have before getting even that first ablation and would up flipping into persistent AFIB as a result making my ablation process all
the more challenging.

Dr. Silver also said as well that some, but not all cases of AFIB 'have a good response to electrolyte therapy' and he never once came close to calling it a 'cure' in our discussions.

And Mork have you considered if it truly was magnesium alone that stopped your AFIB?? And not, perhaps, from some combination of changes of which getting your magnesium right may have been a key individual trigger for you among a cascade of biochemical events that played out in that way in your case?

AFIB, in all that I have witnessed and learned is far too variable with a broad range of individual responses to be labeling Magnesium deficiency the prime cause, and restoration of magnesium, the core cure for this awful disease. At least the evidence to date totally does not support it as a reliable cure for anything close to a majority of those who have seriously tried it.

As such, I prefer we discuss our experiences themselves with AFIB Mork, and not just post theories based on abstract excerpts which I know can often be inadvertently misleading, Share with us more of the details of your own struggles with AFIB and how you finally came about using Magnesium, some of the treatments and doctors you saw for your AFIB etc etc.. Put a story to the name of 'Mork', as most others here have done with using a real first name or a moniker but with their own real sharing of the ups and downs of their stories. Then each person will have a better feel for the flow of your own AFIB history, the steps you have had to walk and how indeed this remarkable, but not unprecedented, 10 years of freedom from AFIB happened, apparently just from Magnesium guided by the EXAtest?

Knowing these kinds of things will help most of our readers better gauge whether they have already 'been there and done that', or if indeed maybe you can share more insights than you have so far that might inspire others to give the same details of your process that you did a try. Or they may decide that your experience is of being one of the lucky relative few for whom it really was fairly easy, even if they have long ago covered the same ground you did and found it insufficient in their cases.

All that is fine with me, just lets go easy on claiming the CURE routine for now and it you wish to discuss that avenue then please do so in the General Health forum to post those kind of threads where more speculative interests can be further explored by all who wish too here without infusing the main forum too much with concepts that can be more confusing in the main forum. Its very confusing for new members who come here looking for solid guidance that we have found works well over the long term.

Had many of us, such as myself, not gone to exhaustive lengths proving to ourselves ultimately that magnesium will very useful was only an important piece of the AFIB management puzzle for the majority, but falls short of a cure for the vast majority of afibbers we know who have tried to find a cure there. If we did not have such an in-depth and long history of investigation with just as high hopes and expectations of finding our own cures via magnesium and the other nutrients too, then I would be more open to supporting such speculative musings on the main forum, but we are not just going to toss out 16 years of collective experience based on one or two reports from people whose in-depth AFIB histories we know little to nothing about.

I have a responsibility to both welcome a wide variety of opinion and experience here, but also not to allow the main forum to get too watered down with either far fetched speculation or going too far over ground we have already covered and found wanting, as in the case of a 'magnesium only cure' for AFIB. I have received now a good number of complaints about claims that appear poorly supported to want to see those continue on the main forum, so many thanks for respecting that.

The nuts and bolts of what you did for treating your AFIB before, during and after your discovery of magnesium and what else besides magnesium alone you might have done for your own good health or other protocols to improve cardiac health as well are all welcomed and would be useful in placing your experience in the kind of context nearly everyone here winds up sharing over time.

Thanks for reading and best wishes,

Shannon



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2015 09:14AM by Shannon.

I concur wholeheartedly with Shannon.

My first afib episode was almost exactly 11 years ago. Within a month, I'd found this site, purchased and read this site's founder, Hans Larsen's, first book "Lone Atrial Fibrillation: Towards a Cure." It is still a good introduction, even though dated. The site was populated with many participants who were highly intelligent, well educated, very motivated and disciplined. They tried many different approaches to slay the afib dragon. The writings in the Conference Room are testament to these people <[afibbers.org] also here <[afibbers.org] in addition to the archives of this board. You'll note that magnesium is featured in many of these writings. This is inclusive of the work Erling and Jackie did to create "Waller Water," a magnesium bicarbonate water <[www.afibbers.org].

It was this from this fertile garden, that I was able to construct my own remission program which includes magnesium to bowel tolerance, potassium and taurine. This is well before this approach was known. I learned early on that taurine was an essential part of the mix for me.

However, with all the emphasis on magnesium, I concur with Shannon that the number of afibbers who have been able to achieve long term remission with this approach is small. Not that it isn't worth giving it a good try as magnesium has huge benefits in any case. Magnesium is always the first thing I suggest to friends with afib. I also suggest they resolve any metabolic issues through lifestyle - blood pressure, metabolic syndrome.

I've also seen other interesting responses among friends. One local friend had his first episode soon after I had constructed my own remission program. I told he what I was doing. He also successfully used high dose (>4g/day) magnesium as a cornerstone of his approach. Some years later, he found he had obstructive sleep apnea (even though he does not have traditional risk factors except large neck circumference, he's fit with a 23 BMI, but his neck is > 17"). When he treated the apena, he told me his magnesium requirement dropped very dramatically. Another friend, a Wolff-Parkinson-White (WPW) syndrome ablatee, has debilitating PAC runs at maximal exertion (these PAC runs dramatically her maximum physical output). Magnesium helps, but her true savior is a very low carb diet. It is such that the PAC's return the next day upon deviation from a strict ketogenic diet.

Early in my exploration of options for my afib, I had an Exatest. I was not surprised it showed a mag level at the very bottom of normal. I've not repeated the test as, in my mind, needing to consume 4 or more g/day of mag for bowel tolerance is indicative of not significantly repleting intracellular magnesium. Carolyn Dean recommends using the RBC mag test as an imperfect, but much less expensive alternative to the Exatest (also does not require sampling by a doc). She says <[drcarolyndean.com] p48, "To determine your magnesium saturation point, get a Magnesium RBC test through Request A Test <[requestatest.com] (in the US, $49 using LabCorp). The range is usually given as 4.2-6.9 mg/dL; the optimum level is between 6.0-6.5mg/dL."

George

Shannon -
It became clear your comments are directed at my brief presentation. The word "magnesium" was not used so I'm at a loss to understand your focus on magnesium. As stated, my intent is to develop a scientific basis for AF cause and cure. If that is un- acceptable on your forum let me know and I'll leave.

As always in science, the process begins with data, and the best initial data derives from the science-based and validated Exatest, and the 12 lead ECG. It is important to understand Exatest provides 24 numerical data points for 6 elements' levels and their related ratios, plus written data through interpretation. Early in my AF experience an ECG revealed depressed T waves meaning abnormally slow myocyte repolarization. An associated Exatest revealed low intracellular potassium as the cause. Those initial data led to further data and eventual cure.

Moerk

The last week in April of this year I had an abnormal ECG, that led my EP to schedule a Nuclear Stress test, I had that done the 3rd week in May, everything is great no problems with my heart. So what I am saying is that ECG can often show abnormality, not the best test to rely on.

Liz

LIZ:

I can agree with your response to Morek, in that I believe you are trying to say that AF is more complex that he is laying out is his comments about finding a science-based cure for AF. Having said that, I will like to respond to some of the specific things you cited.

You asked Morck about why the more fit tend to get AFIB, vs the fat lazy people who don't eat right.
The answer is that some of the "more fit" tried to get too fit, and pushed themselves cardiovascularily so hard, that they stretched out their Atria and made the conditions more favorable for AF to occur. That doesn't mean that normal moderate exercise causes AF. As for the comment about "any operation on the Heart can cause AF" this is getting outside the bounds of LAF (Lone AF). Is it well understood that Hearts with compromised functioning of various sorts can greatly increase the risk of AF.

As for the ECG analysis, I too have noticed many of these abnormalities on these tests. Many of these abnormalities are errors in the machine generated diagnoses, and a qualified EP can discern and dismiss many of these upon reading and interpreting the ECG's. It's clear that the EP Dr's use the ECG as the single best way to see what is going on with our Hearts. Every time you go to a Cardio Dr, or the an ER for Cardiac issues, one of the first things that they will do is perform an ECG test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2015 03:24AM by The Anti-Fib.

Hi Mørk,

Thanks for the added info and details, I had actually dictated a fair portion of my initial long reply above over a week prior to reading this threads opening topic intro day before yesterday morning. And I had rather been hoping the issue would naturally find it's own balance in the back and forth discussions here over the past two months. However, the combination of receiving a modest but increasing stream of concerned PMs about where all this was heading from some of our regular readers, and then my reading what sounded a bit like the declaration of a new 'cure for AFIB discovered' manifesto at the top of this thread, is what inspired me to finish off the piece I had started a while ago and had shelved temporarily due to more pressing demands on my time.

Indeed, most of my magnesium-focused impressions of your own focus Mørk, came from what I have read and gleaned previously from the variety of your posts since you first arrived here two months ago that I have had a chance to read, or at least skim through, and not at all just from the short intro to this thread. But as I noted too early in my reply above, I have not been able to read all that you have posted here and so apologized in advance for any things I have missed or am mistaken about in what you have been trying to convey here.

Plus, I was reluctant to go into all this least some newer readers might get the wrong impression I was some how now ANTI electrolyte repletion, which I am most certainly not! Not to mention having more family delays to deal with again presently with Magda's mother gravely ill now back in the hospital the last two days and apparently soon to depart this world according to the docs attending her, and thus we have been quite pre-occupied with all the back and forth phone calls and arrangements these demands entail, including what will very likely be my own trip to Canada soon as well following shortly behind Magda.

In any event, what I am though Mørk, is concerned that in our zeal to share something that has worked well with perhaps ourself and for a modest group of others, that we not potentially overstate the larger case and thus wind up gilding the lily to the point that it strains credulity and perhaps eventually undermines credibility and trust in the larger message being shared here and all inadvertently, of course.

That, and not wanting possibly to confuse or frustrate a fair number of the main forum readers, especially some of the relative newcomers, who come here looking for immediate actionable guidance that has been tried and proven to really help their AFIB or at least manage their symptoms and give a good action plan in a consistent way without necessarily having to try to reinvent a wheel that is already quite well understood and well worn here and whose benefits are already well incorporated into our existing protocols. And knowing that anyone who follows our recommendations will surely discover whether or not magnesium and repletion of the other minerals and nutrients will, or will not, be able to play a major role in their own recovery from the beast, as it is.

That being said, I did get the sense that an Exatest results-driven repletion of largely magnesium as the number one player in your long remission with some other electrolytes perhaps being important too, was at the basis of your claim to have discovered a reliable cure for AFIB .. that and your rather new claim to my ears at least, that 'interstitial fibrosis' is the 'prime cause' of AFIB and can be directly eliminated via extensive proteolytic/fibrinolytic enzyme therapy. Is that not a fair summary of what you have stated so far about your process?

By the way, I also tried extensively for 8 months at 36 capsules a day of a broad spectrum Doctors prescription form of enzyme formula as a last ditch effort to avoid my first ablation when in Holland still .. and to no avail for my AFIB that progressed from increasing paroxysmal to persistent while undergoing that protocol along with intensive electrolyte repletion as well .. though it did very much clear up an old nagging knee and lower side/hip injury very well indeed and whose relief persists to this day! The AFIB, though, only got worse while I was taking the huge doses of enzymes, though I don't think they caused my AFIB to worsen either.

Now we ... or at least I ... learned too that low potassium was also a key issue for you which I had not read before, or simply did not see mention of it previously, if indeed you have shared about the low potassium and ECG depressed T-wave anomaly issue before?

Nevertheless, my lack of understanding of your full protocol at this point in time, also highlights one of my other concerns in that I have seen precious little as to the nuts and bolts details of what it is you actually propose as the step by step cure process. After two months, I do think it is not unreasonable to expect a clear lay out of just what it is you propose in detail, before we can be expected to just open our arms to your claims of a universal cure at hand, don't you agree?

Thus, as to your question about whether or not our forum is a good place for you to discuss your cure protocol that depends on what you anticipate and expect from doing so? I don't get the sense that there is a financial gain motive here as if you are selling anything even though the Exatest and enzyme therapies seem to be the basis of your program, and I do not get the sense that you work in any why now with EXAtest or some enzyme company, right? And I presume you are willing to share the details of your plan freely here, is that not also correct? If not that too would be important knowledge from the outset.

As noted in another thread I replied to you this morning concerning the fibrosis issue, I would really like to speak with you over the phone too Mørk, which is easier to connect and discuss the nuances of all these kind of topics more naturally and effectively I have found. Much easier than me having to first dictate these response which always draws out their length, and then go back and correct as many errors as I can find with the little time I can devote to this right now, and which still takes a very long time no matter what.

Having a good one to one chat can help sort such things out and clear up remaining questions I have found in the past, so if you will please PM me your number and a good time to talk sometime after middle of this week or so when the AFIB Report is done, I feel that can really help clarify where our common interests align and I can get a better sense of what your ideas around revealing or discussing your treatment methods are.

Also, the General Health forum has always been a handy place to discuss more off topic issues, or even AFIB related that are of a more 'exploratory' or speculative nature and everyone is free to check in there too to follow such threads dealing with all aspects of health they are interested in. Depending on what it is you have in mind to share or contribute here, that may well be the best place to host some aspects of your interests and in particular the cure for AFIB claims the details of which that I have heard so far are just not yet fleshed out and convincing enough to support hosting that discussion on the main forum.

You are obviously a very bright man or women (I may have missed any distinction shared about that so far) and much of what you have shared about magnesium and EXAtest from study excepts and book or article quotes has been valid and useful in my view, though as noted above, nothing really new and that has remains unexamined here.

In any event, sharing more of your story would really help connect you with the group and vice versa and builds the natural trust that is a big part of our success here as a forum that so many people have found real life-altering help from over the last 16 years, as so many here will gladly attest to if you ask them or even do a little search for the month of January 2014 when Hans and Judi Larsen retired and the outpouring of gratitude from so many for their tireless effort to keep the lights on here and the spirit alive was very moving and touching indeed.

But with that trust comes incumbent on me, and to a lesser degree my close colleagues here, the need to take care that we try our best to sustain both the open spirit of cooperative exploration here, and yet also protect the close nit family feeling here and insure that the message stays on point as well without letting it drift too far out to left field, even if inadvertently.

You mentioned Steve Carr who drops by occasionally and was very welcomed when he posted his well thought-out protocol that he and his father have found excellent intermediate term success with so far, Steve made it clear just what his prior experience had been, what he had tried to help his AFIB and finally what he discovered, but as you noted dedicated investigation into the prime triggers and underlying mechanisms that appear to be driving his AFIB. he laid out clearly from day one what his protocol entailed and said he was very interested in seeing if anyone else could replicate his success and that of his father though of shorter duration at that time.

I welcomed that approach and open willingness to lay his agenda on the line right from the get go and share his protocol freely and directly for all to try themselves as they saw fit, and I readily encouraged those of our members who were still in AFIB and possibly considering an ablation to give his ideas a good college effort as well. He feels confident it will help large numbers but cant be sure until he tests his hypothesis on more than himself and a close genetic relative in his father.

At two months now though since you began posting Mørk, while it seemed clear from your email address used upon registering that you feel you have found a natural cure for this disease and thus might also have an agenda coming in here as well, and that you have implied as such a number of times previously .. though perhaps not quite so directly and unequivocally as in your thread intro post above ... and yet, at least I still don't have a clear idea of what you are proposing here beyond claiming a cure based on some combination of EXAtest inspired mineral repletion combined in some fashion with a proteolytic and/or fibrinolytic enzyme protocol for resumed reversal of atrial fibrosis which today you made the novel claim that interstitial fibrosis was the 'prime cause' of AFIB ... a proposed fact I have never heard before and does not make sense from my understanding of the role and mechanism of interstitial fibrosis in AFIB.

As such, it would be much appreciated if you could share with me by PM the studies, articles or from what arena you have learned that interstitial fibrosis is the prime cause of AFIB ... or is this mostly a presumption based on your own readings that you would like to test out in some why with our readers assistance? Its clearly in our readers interest up front to be aware of where your sources of these causes and cures derive and how you came about them.

Are you hoping to recruit a number of people from here for some experiment or to develop a hypothesis toward demonstrating and proving your protocol really is a cure which is a more welcomed starting point from my view?

If not, and you already are convinced you know the cure, as it sometimes appears, then I would hope we could all be made privy without much further delay and have the details of your process and rationale revealed in a page, two or three or more, outlining the basic process in detail that you followed or are now recommending .. not unlike the Strategy details the protocol we have so often recommended here and that Jackie Burgess' so kindly produced for us all many years ago, or of the program Steve Carr so diligently researched and produced and shared from day one with us when he first proposed people here try the ideas that have helped him and his father so much.

If this really all is still mainly a hypothesis for you, then perhaps calling it as such will loosen some remaining concerns a bit that you possibly might have gotten a bit over-zealous with your own excellent reported results, and just might have jumped the gun a bit in the scientific process. And you might then find a more willing group to explore those ideas when the conclusion doesn't perhaps feel so predetermined such that short cuts and corners might be cut during the investigation in order to favor the expected and wanted outcome .. such as presuming all those in conference room 61 are cured to this day with no access to the largest number of them for detailed confirmation of how they have done these years since first reporting their positive results.

We just need to be careful here Mørk to keep this as evidenced-based and objective as possible and anyone involved must be fully willing to acknowledge any possible later facts and outcomes that dictate the effort that worked for you may not prove to be a universal antidote for the majority after all, if only they are 'smart' enough to get it and correct their nutritional deficits .. life is not often so simple and cookie cutter as our idealized projections of how it should be, Quite a few of us were incredibly dedicated to full dietary Paleo -like diets, moderate exercise and stress control with careful full strength supplement intake and all of which were redoubled in effort once the initial success broke down for those of us who did experience a return to AFIB after a long break of NSR, only to not be able to regain NSR consistently again and anything close to that prior sense of having found a 'cure' no matter what we did afterwards, at least until an expert ablation was undergone that helped reset long term NSR once again,

No doubt you have a lot to offer the group Mørk, just like everyone here does too, and that is what makes this dynamic forum what it is as we are all in the same boat here and have each others backs, so to speak. And so how best to share that contribution is something you and I can discuss soon on the phone too, I trust.

I very much look forward to learning more about your ideas when we can speak together Mørk and in the meantime have a relaxing holiday weekend!

Cheers!
Shannon

Hi Shannon - I have a couple questions as they relate to your last post...but don't be in a rush to respond as I know you are pressed for time.

The first is about fibrosis being a cause or at least contributory to promoting Afib and your comment that you aren't aware of that.

I recall from long ago that when cardiac research PhD, David Van Wagoner of the Cleveland Clinic mentioned that fact at the Afib Summit I attended back then and it was one of the motivational factors that prompted me to learn more about fibrosis and the resultant report in CR 24 and my ongoing emphasis on the importance of preventing fibrosis as my posts and reports discuss.

Just now, I did a cursory search to find that study reference... and, instead, found a couple more new studies indicating that fibrosis contributes to arrhythmia. I'll look for the one from about 10 or so years ago. I'm short on time but saw a couple more similar studies.

Atrial fibrosis with enhanced turnover and deposition of matrix proteins leads to inhomogeneous atrial electrical conduction and gives rise to electrical reentry circuits resulting in atrial fibrillation. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] 2012 study

And I found this new one, that also links fibrosis to AF as a result of the inflammatory response that we so often caution about.

Role of Inflammation in Atrial Fibrillation Pathophysiology and Management
Masahide Harada, David R. Van Wagoner, Stanley Nattel

Circulation Journal (Impact Factor: 3.69). 02/2015; 79(3):495-502. DOI: 10.1253/circj.CJ-15-0138
Source: PubMed

ABSTRACT Atrial fibrillation (AF) is the most common clinically relevant arrhythmia, but the methods available for treating AF and its complications (of which the most important is thrombogenesis), as well as for assessing AF risk and underlying pathophysiology, are largely limited. Emerging evidence suggests a significant role of inflammation in the pathogenesis of AF. That evidence includes elevated serum levels of inflammatory biomarkers in AF subjects, the expression of inflammatory markers in cardiac tissues of AF patients and animal models of AF, and beneficial effects of anti-inflammatory drugs in experimental AF paradigms. Inflammation is suggested to be linked to various pathological processes, such as oxidative stress, apoptosis, and fibrosis, that promote AF substrate formation. Inflammation has also been associated with endothelial dysfunction, platelet activation, and coagulation cascade activation, leading to thrombogenesis. Thus, inflammation may contribute to both the occurrence/maintenance of AF and its thromboembolic complications. Here, we review the evidence for a role of inflammation and inflammatory biomarkers in the risk management and treatment of AF. We also summarize the current knowledge of inflammation-dependent cellular and molecular mechanisms in AF pathophysiology and their potential as therapeutic targets. (Circ J 2015; 79: 495-502).

Role of Inflammation in Atrial Fibrillation Pathophysiology and Management. Available from: [www.researchgate.net]



The second question: On a personal level and if you don't care to respond, I'll understand, but with your history of polio as a youngster and then sadly, your continuing complications later in life that unfortunately affected you so profoundly, it would make sense to me that your body does not respond or react to "natural" interventions as readily or even as well as one that has not been under the polio aftermath siege. It may be one of the reasons you found it difficult to benefit consistently to magnesium heroics because of the probably unknown extent of cell membrane damage.

Those of us who have concomitant medical complications likely can't hold ourselves up as ideal study models for trying various natural approaches, but with time and heroics, as you have done, (much more than I )... we can target beneficial nutrients that work for us.

Many of the more 'normal' people I've worked with to help stabilize arrhythmia over the years respond much easier and quicker than I do with my own chemical exposure residual issues and you own limitations could very well be similar. I'm sure you agree that all things considered, we are fortunate to be doing as well as we are under the circumstances.

It's been a long haul for both of us to reach the elusive NSR, but thankfully.... we I are here to attest to the bliss of NSR....in spite of the roadblocks and detours.

Best to you,
Jackie

H Jackie,

No time to respond properly right now, as Magda's mother this morning in the hospital in Canada suffered a massive stroke and may not last through tomorrow and am un to my eyeballs trying to get her on a flight tonight and up to Kelowna, hopefully before her mom passes but she might linger for a week or so during this comfort support period we were told today.Its all pretty up in the air at the moment until Magda gets there and then I may be coming shortly depending.

But one thing that is critical to understand about what I am saying Jackie is that I 100% agree fibrosis has a major impact on the course of AFIB for the majority of long time afibbers, that is without question, and preventing or in whatever way is possible to reverse structural fibrosis which can definitely happen at certain mostly early to middle stages of the progression but which there is definitely a point of no return beyond which fibrolinic scar tissue is not amenable to reversal also is true.

What I am saying very specifically is that Mørks claim that the PRIME CAUSE of AFIB is interstitial fibrosis I can find absolutely zero support for that statement from any of my sources including two world class elite level EPs I conferred with about this very matter yesterday and who without a moments hesitation confirmed that no such conclusion is in concert with what we know of fibrosis and AFIB.

And Jackie in that except you underlined it listed 'Inflammation' as a more proximal cause than interstitial fibrosis which no doubt itself shares inflammation as one of IT's own contributing mechanisms for being. As you start to peel back the onion here fibrosis starts to move down the list a bit from the more prime or proximal likley 'first causes' of AFIB.

That does not mean trying to treat and reverse fibrosis to help improve left atrial AFIB substrate is not a highly worthwhile goal and effort, whether or not we discover that fibrinolytic enzyme therapy actually does remove fibrosis say after passing the point of apparent no return as highlight in a new study I am featuring in this issue of The AFIB Report from an editorial out of Intermountain Utah group looking at al interesting Japanese study which have found a strong tipping point beyond which when it is crossed little to no fibrosis removal is at all likely by any means we know of.

Perhaps the enzyme therapy will be the magic bullet that does the trick even past this tipping point, but just wishing it to be so because of some good effects in other medical inflammatory conditions does not indicate that is will work this way with mature atrial fibrosis. We can certainly posit that possibility as a worthwhile research effort, but until there is some hard repeated real world data showing actual remodeling induced advanced fibrotic reversal from using these agents we can only offer that as a theoretical possibility and not at all with any assurance that it will work reliably for these advanced AFIB cases.

I think the likelihood is much much greater for a possible reversal effect earlier on in the evolution of the fibrotic and other inflammatory changes in the atrium which regardless of treatment modalities underscores the adage that "time is truly tissue' when it comes to AFIB and that the wise person will bring all the best treatment options to bare to stop AFIB as soon as possible after diagnosis and not beat around the bush for years like we did simply because we tried to avoid an ablation at all costs ... at least in my case ... while figuring just one more adjustment of my nutrient cocktail would surely do the trick.

Far smarter, in my view now, would be to give the natural protocols a full year of total dedication and if after that, there is still a modest number of breakthroughs occurring, then add in a true expert ablation process as well, while continuing on indefinitely with all the nutrient enhancement and life style risk factor improvements to really stack the deck in one's favor sooner rather than later in the process.

And your question Jackie that maybe my childhood polio might have made me uniquely immune to the benefits of natural medicine and nutritional
therapy doesn't seem to hold much, if any water .. as I have made entirely dramatic improvements in my overall health including over the years from all of these on going efforts since the mid 1990s when I dove in head first into natural therapies practically living at the medical library doing my own in depth research.

Everyone of my older docs who treated me when I was quite disabled and when I had to wear a modified Florida brace from my lower waist to the back of my head with my head cradled on a custom made orthotic like head rest with a strap across my forehead ( I looked like Robocop walking down the street for some 17 years until 2006 when I was finally able to wean myself from my brace,), simply cannot believe I am the same person they treated all those years ago.

To a man, each one has told me flat out that when they have seen me over the last 10 years progressively transform as my body largely has, it reminds them of what can be possible with natural means as well, but still every time I go back to Hawaii and see these docs who have followed me for 35 to 40 years they just shake their heads at the turn around.

In any event, at all the BHRT and Functional medicine conferences I used to work at very regularly until recently before taking on this website after Hans retired I am viewed as a veritable poster child and testimonial example for the powerful properties of integrative medicine well-applied .. most significantly so for the dramatic turn around in my body from restoring most all of my deficient anabolic and adrenal hormone levels.

Though of course you can never prove a negative so I guess this idea of my challenging childhood health experiences from scarlet fever and vaccine-induced polio in 1962, could become a real stretch of a rationale for those trying to explain away my particularly well-documented case of a highly dedicated effort at curing AFIB (or at least preventing a dreaded ablation) via these methods applied with heroic levels of focus and intensity, but while very helpful overall did not come close to truly curing my condition by themselves.

But that belies my major turn around in every other aspect of my health AND far more importantly the fact that I toss my own case out when considering this issue for myself, and instead look at my experience as only one of a much larger percentage of afibbers who did not have polio or some such issue that I know of and heard of, who also made a real effort at mineral repletion and such and most of whom, just like myself, experienced significant improvements from doing so, but that ultimately still fell short of a true cure of AFIB, very much like in my case.

As noted, the Strategy was indeed highly successful for me for almost 5 years, such that I was likely close to as convinced and cocky about me being cured as Im sure Mørk or any number of others feel as well, and that is perfectly understandable ... I get it! And I still follow supplements and many more that have worked very well for me over the years as well.

As such Jackie, while I cant promise my past medical history had no impact on the major natural steps I took not resulting in a full cure, I nevertheless seem to be in good company with the majority so far that I know of who have gone down this road a long way and have had similar good, but equivocal results, and have also required an expert ablation at some point to really put some distance between them and waiting for that next trigger into AFIB.

Again, what perks up my radar and makes me bristle a bit is that the very powerful-natural-based benefits, in and of themselves, including for some people such powerful and long lasting remission that it really is like a true cure, ought to speak enough for themselves and not require reaching for funny or highly questionable stats, and not need extra massaging and cherry picking the data (a favorite of many natural-based practitioners who sometimes reach too far and try too hard to make a great result into an absolute sure cure level event, and usually with some sort of financial incentive for over-promoting these otherwise often wonderful and very natural therapies.

To me, that does more than just a little fudge-factoring kind of minor harm that is rationalized in some circles as justified to counter balance the similar much larger efforts on the allopathic big pharma side of the coin with the drugs and procedures being often over-promised as well. The natural medicine/food world, with less rigorous checks and balances in place, needs to be even more stringent in following evidence-based reality in my view and trying not to over exaggerate and over promise to make what is even without such gilding the lily a very good story as it is sound like a golden bed-time lullaby.

I think most adults can handle the reality that trying to first restore what is missing in one's own natural endogenous bio-chemistry and physiology, makes all kinds of good sense and is highly effective compared to having to chase after health problems only after the horse has long escaped from the barn with more toxic drugs and at times questionable procedures

Doing so is the fastest way to undermine one's credibility. As does, quoting every positive abstract from every small barely representative nutritional study and theory that simply does not rise to the burden of convincing proof of those more robust and well done studies of the same agents that tend to be fewer and farther between due to less funding for such research.

It's all great to paint a simple and clean sounding 'sure cure' if only one follows a few steps and is smart enough, but if those claims are based on loose and questionable data, it does not help the cause of increasing people's confidence in the many wonderful benefits adopting a much healthier natural food based life style can truly bring.

And I take great comfort from, and fully understand, that anyone who comes to our site and follows our recommendations will certainly find out for themselves if they are going to get a real cure-like result from the natural protocols, and that is wonderful and a great blessing when it happens. But so far, I have not seen long term cure-like results happen for the majority who have tried it to the degree that one can expect real world people to commit to such programs from only the natural arm of the treatment options alone.. But if you are one who can achieve that its very rewarding to hear about and in knowing that the odds are high you will find that out if you can win that lottery via our recommendations.

I know it sounds so reassuring to announce a perfect cure for all that ails us, but the reality is often a bit short of that for most people, and yet most often very much worthwhile pursuing these therapies for the positive contributions they can make.

As far as Ive seen, after all, no one gets out of here alive! We do the best we can, share as much love, happiness and joy in our lives that we can and gracefully exit stage left when the time comes.

Got to run now Jackie, we have to speak to Magda's Moms doc at the hospital right now on her end of life care from here on.

Be well,

Shannon

Take it easy Shannon, your responses are more than adequate for the time being, so you can tend to your important family business without worrying about the site.

True enough AA and thanks for the nice thoughts ... and will do!

When a topic like this comes up I typically dictate ( for better or worse my replies in the early morning, when out on errands in the car or later at night before shutting down and then post them during the day when I have a moment and do a quick check on the forum to see if any new folks have signed up and need to be authorized.

In this way, I have tried to minimize interruption of more pressing matters. But it definitely does take away from my own down time as well which is equally important, especially with the unusually demanding past year and a half or so we have had, and dictating for whatever time savings it may bring ( questionable) does make the replies run a good deal longer with a more conversational ... or is that meandering ...discussion.

Will check back in after the newsletter is published sometime in the coming week I trust.

Cheers!
Shannon

The existence of an innate healing system was posited at the beginning. Andrew Weil MD describes the healing system in his classic Spontaneous Healing. How to Discover and Enhance Your Body’s Natural Ability to Maintain and Heal Itself:

-- Healing is an inherent capacity of life.
-- The healing system operates continuously and is always on call.
-- The healing system has diagnostic capability; it can recognize damage.
-- The healing system can remove damaged structure and replace it with normal structure.
-- The healing system not only acts to neutralize the effects of injury, it also directs the ordinary
moment-to-moment corrections that maintain normal structure and function.
-- Healing is spontaneous. It is a natural tendency arising from the internal nature of DNA.

The science of AF causation has advanced markedly in recent years, as may be seen in pieces scattered throughout the literature. Several were presented yesterday by Jackie:

-- Atrial fibrosis with enhanced turnover and deposition of matrix proteins leads to inhomogeneous atrial electrical conduction and gives rise to electrical reentry circuits resulting in atrial fibrillation.

-- Fibrosis in Atrial Fibrillation – Role of Reactive Species and MPO [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] [2012]

-- Role of Inflammation in Atrial Fibrillation. Pathophysiology and Management
[www.jstage.jst.go.jp] [2015] [2015]

At [www.afibbers.org] there is this:

-- Superoxide-mediated activation of cardiac fibroblasts by serum factors in hypomagnesemia [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov] [2001]

At [www.afibbers.org] there are these slide presentations:

-- European Society of Cardiology Congress in Paris, Aug 28, 2011 [spo.escardio.org]
1. Imaging of fibrosis [40 slides]
2. Proarrhythmic potential of fibrosis - lessons from optical mapping [49 slides]
3. Fibrosis and atrial fibrillation [17 slides]
4. Fibrosis and ventricular fibrillation [34 slides]

At [www.afibbers.org] see:
:
-- Fibroblast-fibroclast: The ultrastructural mechanisms of resorption of collagen fibers in involution of the connective tissue. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

-- Ultrastructural evidence for the presence of "fibroclasts" and "myofibroclasts" in wound healing tissues. [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Finis.

Andrew Weil needs to lose about 50 lbs, I saw him on Dr. Oz's show and couldn't believe how out of shape he is, "do as I say not as I do".

Liz

"Andrew Weil needs to lose about 50 lbs, I saw him on Dr. Oz's show and couldn't believe how out of shape he is,..."

Is his weight relevant to his medical opinions or findings? If he lost the weight you disapprove of, would you then think more of his medical opinions?

PeggyM



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2015 07:16AM by PeggyM.

HI Mørk,

It's Monday evening here and a slightly shorter reply.. before signing off for now on this thread. Though first, I would still very much like to speak with you by phone if you will PM me, as it takes too much of my time going back and forth here when we can make far easier and quicker progress toward better mutual understanding and resolve my remaining questions and learn more about your proposed process as well in a nice chat to two.

Thanks for the latest list of links above, all are interesting and are covering topics and issues Hans and I have both often covered here and in the AFIB Report as well. Several of the links on fibrosis and AFIB that you posted in this latest reply above, I have had the good fortune of being able to watch the authors present those findings live at one of the various EP conferences, and have spoken to a few of them on these overall issues such as KaIyanam Shivkumar (an original Natale protege) and Stanley Nattel, at these conferences I attend each year as I can, with all the invaluable feedback, challenging questions and comments from other leading AFIB scientists that often give far deeper insights and access to the core issues being shared or implied in these studies and research directions.

Most importantly Mørk, when reading those links carefully you will see no connection or suggestions of fibrosis as THE prime cause of AFIB confirmed or posited anywhere. What we do see in these links above, is all the many ways in which fibrosis is a key player in the progression and even, at times, local pathogenesis of new AFIB circuits and triggers, but no implication of a prima facia or original causal relationship with AFIB.

Keep in mind that each of the discussions you posted fundamentally highlight the ASSOCIATION of fibrosis with AFIB not its CAUSAL relationship and certainly no suggestion of fibrosis being the core prime or original cause of AFIB. Instead, careful reading of these reports will reveal the many associated and often co-existing and related manifestations that influence, and are often influenced in return by both fibrosis and AF.

Such connections as, Reactive Oxygen Species-Oxidative Stress, Inflammatory cytokines and processes, MAP kinases, NF-kB signaling, Ca2+ calcium channel transport or overload issues and Ion channel remodeling plus many more; and a fair amount of those associated contributors toward overall AFIB severity and progression are often mediated strongly by genetic variables as well etc. etc. and so on.

One could perhaps more closely peg a prime cause for AFIB, if there even is only one cause which I highly doubt, on the more proximal upstream initiating factors for the genesis of fibrosis to begin with. But even still, we very deliberately only see such connections spoken of as associated contributing links in a still not clearly defined multi-factorial puzzle of AFIB.

The odds are high, in my view, that AFIB rather than being a stand alone disease, per se, is more a manifestation of a complex underlying milieu, of aging, genetic contribution, toxicity, excessive physiologic/biochemical stressors including key electrolyte depletion and progressive fibrotic remodeling, plus life style/cardio risk factor accumulation issues all rolled into a rather individually unique, though familiar, pattern of symptoms manifested to variable degrees in each person.

Which reminds me, with an intrepid researcher such as yourself, here are a few of the conference names you might really enjoy and appreciate, like Orlando AFIB 2016 next January, Heart Rhythm Society conference in April or May or the big AHA Scientific Sessions Conference typically in in Nov or Dec . I'm sure you would find any of them fascinating, rewarding and highly informative.

Reaching out to attend such high level discussions, you can interact with the top researchers in the AFIB world and authors of these papers and listen to the back and forth debates in real time and discover a wealth of nuance and insights from these studies that one just cannot glean by just reading the basic abstracts or articles themselves, which are rarely truly conclusive as is. And expanding one's horizons like that helps keep anyone of us from getting overly influenced by basic conceptual ideas that we may have assumed are actually stated or implied in some of this research, when it is not, and thus possibly miss the more variable and nuanced real world message implied within them.

Regarding Dr Weil's quotes, I agree pretty much with his sentiment expressed and overall philosophy as a general principle and I think many of us more or less subscribe to that overall philosophical outlook to a degree.. But as always, the devil is in the details of life unfolding and it rarely proceeds with such predictable order and uniformity as implied in those inspirational-meaning viewpoints of Dr. Weil.

Taking the best care of oneself you can over a lifetime, does indeed pay great dividends for overall health and happiness and certainly can and often does help bring great relief for many specific ailments for sure. A message that our website is founded upon.

But by the same token, about the best real world results from all of the best collective wisdom on natural medicine with, or without the best of allopathic medicine included as well ... and even if we toss in voodoo and wishful thinking for good measure ... that I have witnessed and experienced in myself and many many others, is to achieve a much more rewarding and energetic life as well as a more graceful aging process, where the wheels fall of the wagon very late in the game while maintaining as much as is feasible of one's energy and function as long possible until that time.

Certainly, that is a fantastic and highly worthwhile endeavor in my view. At all the BHRT and age management conferences I've attended and worked at, in general those who attend look and profess to feel a good 10 to 15 years younger and healthier, overall, than comparable aged folks at other large conference gatherings where a broader cross section of typical Americans and Europeans come together. Yet, we don't see anyone yet coming any where close to actually defeating aging by any means a this point, and many of the top representatives of the holistic community are simply aging at an admirably graceful rate, though aging they very much are, as I have witnessed over the years as in myself as well.

As such Mørk, this is not a perfect biological system in practice at least, regardless if by theory, certainly not yet at our stage of evolution and knowledge, and no matter how closely you follow the latest recommended and favored protocols and how great is one's genetic lottery win, no one has yet cheated the grim reaper that I am aware of ... ultimately we all lose the physical game and thus all of this is more about buying as much quality time as one can along the way which is as laudable a goal as I can think of while trying to help others in need in life as well.

Anyway, I'm off to bed now and best wishes too you, I do hope you we can chat soon and I can learn more of what you have in mind as this treatment cure.

In the meantime, I am moving these threads over to the General Health forum where any and everyone who wishes to follow them can easily do so.

Be well,
Shannon



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/07/2015 02:26PM by Shannon.

Dear Peggy:

I don't disapprove of Dr. Weil's protocol, I don't follow it. A long time ago I recall reading a book by Dr. Weil called Spontaneous healing. In the book Dr Weil recommended taking 25,000 IU of Beta Carotene a day, I did that and got very sick, he also recommended eating Soy, well I had a thyroid problem and it made me hypo. I became a little leery of Dr. Weil, he actually caused problems for me, so when I saw him a few days ago on Dr. Oz's show I couldn't believe how old/fat the man was, he is just in his early 70s.

Liz

Thank you Shannon, but I see only loss of precious time for both of us should we dialogue by phone. Reading carefully through your diverse comments, our mindsets regarding the power of objective science are much at odds, and I have no interest in disputations. As an independent science researcher, my sole reason in arriving here is encouraging others to study the sciences applicable to AF. I certainly do not have any "proposed process". I gave science a good try on your forum but results seem improbable. If my presence is in any way undesirable you should remove me from your list of 'approved providers'.

An unfortunate misreading led you to mistake Indian scientist K. Shivakumar MD, awarded for identifying the causal relationship between MgD and cardiac fibrosis and much else. If interested, google his name for many texts. Regarding UCLA cardiologist Kalyanam Shivkumar MD PhD, I have long been aware of his well-earned standing in the EP community.

Apparently, you have not recognized the depth of information inherent in the four 2011 Paris conference presentations linked to, all highly relevant to your forum's AF topic. Together they provide a rather indisputable case for fibrosis and/or necrosis being causal of AF. Those derangements of signal conduction between the SN and AVN are indeed causal.

Obviously, AF is a "manifestation of a complex underlying milieu", the exact reason I brought up the distinction between 'reductionism' and 'holism' recently. Elsewhere, in essence, I stated that AF cure will only come about by first analyzing AF as a malfunction of a complex system, and the parallel complex self-healing system. That you "pretty much agree with his [Dr. Weil's] sentiment expressed" when the only thing presented was his succinct factual overview of one's innate healing system seems odd. The body's healing system is hardly a "philosophical outlook".

I hope you have not misread my intentions to the extent of surmising I'm here for some reason other than helping others, the central aim of any health scientist.

Be well, be at peace.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2015 12:22PM by Moerk.