A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium So bear with me and all respect to Steve Carr and his work and helpings others with AF and his D, calcium, PUFA 3 and cranberry extract protocol. To be very clear, I am super appreciative of the time and detail that Steve spent with me offline in coaching me on my AF but after going back into AF again, I am pretty certain that for me this is not the right track. There is something I am doing that makes my heart want to be in AF. What is it? [color=#FF0033][b](In another thread Carey pointed out that I shouldn't have been taking metsuc along with MulTaq and I believe that may also be a factor in popping out of NSR. At this time I am so frustrated with AF, I can't take the time to isolate one intervention at a time for 'science' - I want out and I'm going both belt and suspenders to cover my ass. For a long time I described my AF as chihuahua and not pit bull AF. But 4 months in AF is like 4 months of a little POS yiping dog biting at your ankles. And now that I had 3 days in NSR I now remember how good it feels and how efficient the heart is in NSR. It is pitbull AF afterall.)[/b][/color] I just had my first ECV and was in NSR for about 90 hours while taking MulTaq and MetSuc. Last night between 10:00 PM and 7:00 AM I went back into AF. So the concepts of 'prime mover' 'root cause' and the engineer motto "what changed?" came to the forefront of my thoughts. When we started son on solid food we had the idea to introduce one new food at a time, only on Monday mornings, for a full week, only that new food as an addition. With all of those precautions we could identify an allergic reaction and take him to the pediatrician should things go south. So I get the concept of one intervention and RCTs. But being older and wiser (not so much) I made the mistake of starting two supplements at the same time, the benign Vitamin D and an adrenal support concoction. Within a few days of taking these, my first AF event. Surely it was the adrenal support (and or the phenteremine, my caffeine addiction and some other bad habits I had at the time.) But never the vitamin D. All of those things stopped a long time ago and I've done flecainide, MulTaq and many of the drugs and combos people in this forum have in their cabinet. I also did acupuncture as found in a research paper with convincing %s. But never stopped taking the D. My D needs were great, my DNA SNP analysis showed I had 5 SNPs that block the absorption of vitamin, my labs had me at the very low end of the normal range. Advice came in to take 5000, 10000, even 20000 a day to address this. Eventually I settled on 10,000 - overshot briefly to 74ng/ml and now consistent at 64. The 'sweet spot'. But here's the thing, maybe mother nature ain't so dumb after all. Sure the meta research shows no connection for high D (vitamin D hypervitaminosis up to 100) but maybe in my case my body (and heart!) were getting along just fine at 34 and 39 ng/ml. [b][u]Something I am doing wants my heart to be in AF[/u][/b] and after this ECV, I believe it is my desire to optimize my vitamin D levels according to statistics and not according to what my DNA and mother nature worked perfectly fine on. So tonight, I am cleaning out D from my supplements and even looking deeper into what else I can eliminate but definitely high doses of D precede my first AF event and have been the one consistent factor as the unstoppable force in my unstoppable AFIB. Has anyone else ever noticed that for them D supplementation caused AF? https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2011-11/imc-nsl111311.php https://www.lifeextension.com/magazine/2012/5/new-study-warns-against-excessive-vitamin-d-intake Did you know that high D levels also cause high calcium? [i]"Too much vitamin D can cause abnormally high levels of calcium in the blood."[/i] https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318415 [i]"Since vitamin D increases calcium absorption in the gastrointestinal tract"[/i] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6115827/ It's very possible than in optimizing D I created a multiplier effect for what little calcium I was consuming in dairy. My long term plan, off as many supplements as possible - all meds but the Eliquis and after my D levels get back down to natural levels for me. (might take a month or two (Help Steve!???) then back on MulTaq and MetSuc, one more ECV and see if that one sticks. I know this describes more than 1 intervention at a time but primarily focused on the vitamin D and really frustrated and disgusted with AF. I feel like a prisoner now and just three days of NSR normalcy reminds me how big the difference is between NSR and AF. https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174144#msg-174144 Thu, 16 Apr 2026 02:35:15 +0000 Phorum 5.2.23 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,185115#msg-185115 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,185115#msg-185115 Like GeorgeN, my heart responds quickly to magnesium supplementation whenever it goes a little wacky. So I take mag glycinate caps throughout the day. I also take D3, 2000 IUs and K2-MK4 120 mcg. daily, sometimes with some Thorne K2-Mk4 drops thrown in... plus fish oils.
And Vit C and other nutrients.
For 5+ years my knees and pelvis have been stiff, and the degree varies depending on how anti-inflammatory my diet's been that day. But lately my pelvis bones ache and my knees are stiffer than ever. I can't figure out why this is so. I did try to reintroduce a small amount of calcium supplement to my days, and always equal it with mag. And maybe this is what my bones need. My heart's not fond of the calcium but my bones ache less. I really don't know what to do. I'm supposed to get knee replacements and x-rays show diminished cartilage, but certainly not bone on bone. I don't have pain with my knees, Just stiffness. It's always been stiffness. I'm 71 yrs, normal weight and eat well and exercise. I can't walk as far as I used to and I walk 50% of the time with a cane. Yes, I probably need the replacements, but I'd sure like to figure this tissue stiffness thing out a little before the first replacement surgery.
I guess I shouldn't expect to have the flexibility of a young person, but there are older people who don't have this degree of rigidity. And it's in the pelvis and knees, not the upper body. I wonder if I took extra/more omega 3 oils, would that make the tissues more flexible? But sometimes I don't think my heart is fond of some parts of the Nordic Naturals I've taken for years (around 1.5 gms/day). Although they certainly are anti-inflammatory. If anyone has any comments, I'd appreciate them.]]> californiagal AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 22 Apr 2022 04:56:38 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174461#msg-174461 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174461#msg-174461
I need to avoid both (and am doing so) while I try to get my levels back down and also go for my 2nd ECV.

Once I can stay in NSR with MulTaq for some time, I will focus on weaning down the multaq and then after some time bringing up the D level.

I picked a bad time to go off D but I am sticking to my plan.

[clinicaltrials.gov]

A thought - the omega 3 PUFA curves have that very tight sweet spot. Would you think a heavier person should adjust that number (amount of O3) to fall into the sweet spot? (as you do with D)]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Tue, 14 Apr 2020 11:01:33 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174422#msg-174422 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174422#msg-174422
I am another who is adversely sensitive to Mg (two recent trials again provoked ectopics) and I suppose that in one sense it could also be said that I too am "adversely sensitive to VitD" -- but only, in truth, in the sense that if I have too much Ca intake then an increase in VitD will worsen any ectopics which arise from the Ca. 

In reality, as you know, what I and two other family members find beneficial (ie to work completely) is to have serum VitD high enough to produce normal levels of both serum PTH and Fasting Metabolic Bone Studies while having Ca intakes low enough to eliminate all ectopics and afib (around the pre-dairying, hunter-gatherer, Third World intakes of 300-400mg/day). So it is the Ca, not the VitD, which is the root of the problem.]]> SteveCarr AFIBBERS FORUM Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:31:50 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174374#msg-174374 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174374#msg-174374
Quote
safib
Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).

For what it is worth, I am sensitive to oral consumption of calcium with respect to afib. I am not sensitive to Mg, D3, or fish oil, from an afib perspective. I should say, if I don't consume large amounts of Mg, afib presents itself immediately. Last night I was testing pulse wave velocity with a hand held device. I had a couple of PAC's in a 30 second test, so a took another 1.2 grams of Mg (even though I'd taken my normal dose earlier in the day) and the PAC's went away. I realize that others are very different, but this is how my system works.

Other than an Exatest in 2004, the only Ca test I've had is serum. My serum levels since 2014 go are almost all mid-range (9.4) or lower.]]> GeorgeN AFIBBERS FORUM Wed, 08 Apr 2020 02:16:24 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174367#msg-174367 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174367#msg-174367
Quote
safib

I have eliminated Vitamin D supplementation and obtain Mg at RDA levels with only slight supplementation (100-200 mg of an absorbable form). It seems based on the article that increased Mg could increase the rate of Vitamin D conversion to active form and subsequently increase absorption of Ca in the gut (from food or supplements), resulting in higher serum ionized Ca with potential cardiovascular implications. Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).

I am..... Too much magnesium or vitamin D supplementation will trigger my Afib.]]> colindo AFIBBERS FORUM Tue, 07 Apr 2020 19:38:31 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174364#msg-174364 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174364#msg-174364
Quote
johnnyS
I would definitely eliminate vitamin D3 in supplement form and focus on magnesium instead. I’m sure you’re aware that taking large doses of vitamin D can induce severe depletion of Mg, hence your afib. Many on this forum complained of increase in ectopics after taking higher dosages (more than 1000ius) of vitamin D3. I would take Mg to bowel tolerance and keep it there for awhile. As far as Vitamin D just get your skin exposed outside in the sun for 30 minutes daily and you should be fine.


[www.sciencedaily.com]

The article J American Osteopathinc Assoc that the sciencedaily summary is extracted from argues that Mg insufficiency can promote and make it difficult to treat Vitamin D deficiency. I don't know where the statement in the sciencedaily summary about Vitamin D supplements increasing a person's calcium levels while they remain Vitamin D deficient comes from. There appears to be nothing about that in the journal article. Note that according to the actual article, Mg deficiency implies Vitamin D metabolite deficiency which in turn implies hypocalcemia and not hypercalcemia.

I have eliminated Vitamin D supplementation and obtain Mg at RDA levels with only slight supplementation (100-200 mg of an absorbable form). It seems based on the article that increased Mg could increase the rate of Vitamin D conversion to active form and subsequently increase absorption of Ca in the gut (from food or supplements), resulting in higher serum ionized Ca with potential cardiovascular implications. Along these lines it would be interesting to know how many who are sensitive to Vitamin D supplements are also sensitive to Mg supplements (I am).]]> safib AFIBBERS FORUM Tue, 07 Apr 2020 14:08:56 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174361#msg-174361 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174361#msg-174361

[www.sciencedaily.com]]]> johnnyS AFIBBERS FORUM Tue, 07 Apr 2020 08:06:28 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174347#msg-174347 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174347#msg-174347
Another place to learn more is Kate's book on K2.

[www.amazon.com]

PS - Take your K and natto with EVOO.

Menaquinone-7 (MK-7), a member of the vitamin K2 family, performs several functions, all related to its recognised effect on post-translational carboxylation of certain protein-bound glutamate residues. Due to its lipophilic structure MK-7 is soluble in olive oil, so the aim of the present study was to test whether extra-virgin (EV) olive oil enriched with MK-7 significantly increases MK-7 plasma levels and has an effect on osteocalcin and its carboxylation status. Healthy young volunteers (n 12) were administered 20 ml EV olive oil per d for 2 weeks, followed by 2 weeks of the same amount of olive oil enriched with 45 μg and then 90 μg MK-7, with an appropriate washout time in between. Blood was collected and plasma separated in each phase of the study. We found that integration of the diet with EV olive oil alone did not produce any significant variation of MK-7 plasma levels compared with baseline. Supplementation with MK-7-enriched olive oil resulted in a significant and dose-dependent increase in plasma levels. The high dose also significantly increased carboxylated osteocalcin (cOC) and decreased undercarboxylated osteocalcin (ucOC) plasma levels, resulting in a significant increase in the cOC:ucOC ratio. A significant correlation was also found between percentage variation of plasma cOCA:ucOC ratio and increase in plasma MK-7 levels. We conclude that regular consumption of MK-7-enriched olive oil may constitute a valid approach in order to preserve some key biochemical mechanisms controlling bone mineralisation.]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Mon, 06 Apr 2020 00:02:29 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174344#msg-174344 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174344#msg-174344
The lead PhD researchers on K2 MK7 are Cees Vermeer and Leon Schurgers (University of Maastricht, Netherlands) starting with the classic: The Rotterdam Study from 2004 found increased intake of Vitamin K2 from dietary sources significantly reducing the incidence of arterial calcification and the risk of CHD mortality by 50% as compared to low dietary vitamin K2 intake. Conversely, dietary vitamin K1 had no effect.
[www.plthealth.com]

There is also an online presentation by Dr. Shurgers on MK7 and several interviews with Richard A. Passwater, PhD from a number of years ago when this topic was in the spotlight that give the important highlights of why Menaquinone 7 is critically important.
[wholefoodsmagazine.com]
[menaq7.com]


Lack of Vitamin K2 causes calcium to fail to be deposited in bones where it belongs and to be deposited instead in arteries, aorta, soft tissues including muscle, breast, kidneys and in heel spurs.
A protein called osteocalcin transports calcium to bone. Vitamin K2(menaquinone-7) is used to solidify this calcium into the bone matrix. When Vitamin K2 is lacking the calcium remains in the blood and ends up getting deposited in the walls of arteries and other sites which is very undesirable. Thus Vitamin K2 becomes a critical nutrient for both bone and arteries.
Cees Vermeer, Laviena Braam et al Vitamin K supplementation: A simple way to bone and cardiovascular health, AgroFOOD industry hi-tech, Nov/Dec 2003 17-20
Schurgers LJ et al Oral Anticoagulant treatment: friend or foe in cardiovascular disease? Blood.2004;104(10):3231-3232

Quoting from a recent presentation on this topic:

Just as important as vitamin D3 is taking vitamin K2! Taking Vitamin D without vitamin K could actually be harmful to your health!

When it comes to calcium metabolism, vitamins D and K work together. Both play important roles. Vitamin D gets calcium into your blood and Vitamin K gets it to the bones and prevents the calcium from accumulating in your arteries, kidneys or heart.

You don't want rogue calcium going to the wrong places, causing joint stiffness or arterial plaque. Vitamin K2 ensures that your body uses calcium properly.

[www.westonaprice.org]

[purathrive.com]

[My comment: keep in mind that, ultimately, what this all means for afibbers is that supplementation with Vitamin D tends to liberate calcium and in addition to the adverse deposition as soft-tissue calcifications, the circulating calcium can overwhelm magnesium - especially if magnesium intake is not optimal... or there is a fundamental absorption issue meaning that your IC Mg is low in spite of supplementation. ]


Thromb Haemost. 2008 Oct;100(4):593-603.
Matrix Gla-protein: the calcification inhibitor in need of vitamin K.
Schurgers LJ1, Cranenburg EC, Vermeer C.
Abstract
Among the proteins involved in vascular calcium metabolism, the vitamin K-dependent matrix Gla-protein (MGP) plays a dominant role. Although on a molecular level its mechanism of action is not completely understood, it is generally accepted that MGP is a potent inhibitor of arterial calcification. Its pivotal importance for vascular health is demonstrated by the fact that there seems to be no effective alternative mechanism for calcification inhibition in the vasculature. An optimal vitamin K intake is therefore important to maintain the risk and rate of calcification as low as possible. With the aid of conformation-specific antibodies MGP species in both tissue and the circulation have been detected in the healthy population, and significant differences were found in patients with cardiovascular disease (CVD). Using ELISA-based assays, uncarboxylated MGP (ucMGP) was demonstrated to be a promising biomarker for cardiovascular calcification detection. These assays may have potential value for identifying patients as well as apparently healthy subjects at high risk for CVD and/or cardiovascular calcification and for monitoring the treatment of CVD and vascular calcification.
PMID: 18841280 [Indexed for MEDLINE] •
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

Schurgers/Vermeer study [www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

------
Thromb Haemost. 2015 May;113(5):1135-44. doi: 10.1160/TH14-08-0675. Epub 2015 Feb 19.
Menaquinone-7 supplementation improves arterial stiffness in healthy postmenopausal women. A double-blind randomised clinical trial.
Knapen MH, Braam LA, Drummen NE, Bekers O, Hoeks AP, Vermeer C1.
[www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov]

VITAMIN K2 & CALCIUM PAPER, SUPPORTED BY NATTOPHARMA, PUBLISHED IN FRONTIERS IN CARDIOVASCULAR MEDICINE
Feb 6, 2019
Journal publishes paper highlighting Vitamin K2 role in bone and vasculature, completed as part of Norwegian Research Council grant.
[www.nattopharma.com]

Just a few of many studies on this important topic.

Jackie


PS - The importance of K2 MK7 was reviewed here previously… check these posts….

[www.afibbers.org]

[www.afibbers.org]]]> Jackie AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 22:21:56 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174343#msg-174343 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174343#msg-174343
Quote
NotLyingAboutMyAfib

Right now I want to remove as much calcium as possible from my tissues and arteries by avoiding calcium, D and excess O3 PUFA. I'll worry about bones later but even then it may not be a problem. Fetuin-a, matrix GLA protein and BMP2 work together to shuttle calcium from where it doesn't belong (heart tissue and arteries) to where it does belong (bones).

Vitamin K2 is what you need and guess what, statins interfere with its production.]]> colindo AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 18:25:04 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174339#msg-174339 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174339#msg-174339
But as the levels were reached and confirmed with lab tests with no change I began to have skepticism about needing to have multiple biomarkers at precise levels and began to lean towards D as a suspect because of interactions with calcium.

I'm thinking now (here comes Carey) that calcium may be the heart of the problem for not only afib but in slowing down a calcium regression strategy.

Right now I want to remove as much calcium as possible from my tissues and arteries by avoiding calcium, D and excess O3 PUFA. I'll worry about bones later but even then it may not be a problem. Fetuin-a, matrix GLA protein and BMP2 work together to shuttle calcium from where it doesn't belong (heart tissue and arteries) to where it does belong (bones).]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 15:01:29 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174338#msg-174338 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174338#msg-174338
It makes sense - my people in Doggerland probably didn't have herd cattle for dairy but tracked the occasional wandering deer across the frozen ice.

[www.sciencedirect.com]

[www.chinesearchaeology.net.cn]]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 14:18:00 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174337#msg-174337 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174337#msg-174337
Quote
SteveCarr

I had experience like you describe with Ca and VitD when I first started to sleuth this stuff out. And, of course, it can be mystifying and frustrating to try to guess the optimum Ca/VitD combo.

But in your situation I would have tried something like this: after a fortnight on a fixed daily total intake of Ca (eg the 500 mg/day of Ca you mention), and assuming my VitD intake had been stable for some time, I would get my PTH and VitD tested.

A possibility is then to lower Ca intake to 300mg/day, raise serum VitD to a new plateau level, and retest for PTH and VitD..

I think the PTH and VitD testing is reasonable, although at the moment I am not going anywheres near a medical testing facility. I don't think I would attempt to lower Ca intake to 300 mg due to the difficulty of sustaining it.

I see that the relationship between Ca and afib is complex and an active area of research, and well beyond my ability to understand. I take a somewhat simpler view: both VitD or fish oil increase the absorption of Ca, and in particular increase ionized Ca, which then appears to have a sympathetic effect which induces PACs and eventually afib. Whether this mechanistic description is correct or not is conjecture and I have no idea whether available testing would support it However, since my afib burden is very low and I don't have issues with immune response, I am probably content to not try to change my VitD level. It is a striking thing though that I have significantly changed my afib burden over 2 years apparently by reducing Ca intake, and at the same time supplementing with VitD and fish oil apparently cause me to relapse. It will be interesting to see how things progress with age, and whether further restriction of Ca is required.]]> safib AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 13:22:23 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174334#msg-174334 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174334#msg-174334
Quote
safib
On a different note, I successfully reduced my paroxysmal afib to < 0.1 % burden over the last two years, by maintaining a dairy-free diet along with reduction in exercise intensity and duration. The episodes that I had were short and lasted only a few minutes. In the past I have repeatedly found that dairy or fish oil supplementation at any level or D3 supplementation beyond the 1000 IU in a multivitamin precipitated PACs which often lead to afib. Based on some of the postings here, I recently tried (twice) D3 supplementation to 2000 IU while holding my calcium intake to about 500 mg. My motivation for this was to boost my D3 level and perhaps improve my immune response. My current D3 is a fairly low end 32 ng/ml. Unfortunately, this again led to PACs and short afib runs. I am going to try some more experimenting, but it seems I just can't tolerate even these moderate levels of D3 supplements even with low calcium intake.

Once again, the overwhelming connection to Ca metabolism (with modulations by vitamin D)! It sounds as though you are interested in the details and intending to experiment, so possibly you will be interested in the following. If not, no matter.

I had experience like you describe with Ca and VitD when I first started to sleuth this stuff out. And, of course, it can be mystifying and frustrating to try to guess the optimum Ca/VitD combo.

But in your situation I would have tried something like this: after a fortnight on a fixed daily total intake of Ca (eg the 500 mg/day of Ca you mention), and assuming my VitD intake had been stable for some time, I would get my PTH and VitD tested.

A possibility is then to lower Ca intake to 300mg/day, raise serum VitD to a new plateau level, and retest for PTH and VitD. If one’s remaining afib burden disappears, and one’s PTH level has fallen, and one’s serum VitD is now much higher, one has achieved a massive WIN-WIN-WIN! That is what happened to me.

VitD suppresses the need for the body's PTH to be as high because it has some similar effects on Ca metabolism: increasing absorption from the same amount of Ca intake and reducing secretion.

It takes a bit of effort to find out – mainly ‘cos it takes a while to plateau one’s serum VitD at any new level (eg just doubling VitD dose from 1000iu/day to 2000/day would take ~3 months to plateau at the new serum level, unless some “loading dosing” was undertaken to speed the process). But, believe me, if one can achieve the magic combination it is well worth it! Amongst other things, if one achieves a serum-VitD/Ca-intake combo that has lowered one's PTH, one is even more secure re any osteoporosis concerns. And, at that point, one can obtain a full Fasting Metabolic Bone Study (blood and urine test) to set one’s mind even further at ease.]]> SteveCarr AFIBBERS FORUM Sun, 05 Apr 2020 05:26:35 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174321#msg-174321 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174321#msg-174321
Baby steps - no guarantees but doing everything I can to stay healthy and alive now.]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Sat, 04 Apr 2020 13:04:39 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174316#msg-174316 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174316#msg-174316
Liz]]> Elizabeth AFIBBERS FORUM Sat, 04 Apr 2020 02:02:56 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174309#msg-174309 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174309#msg-174309
I am 57 with a 4 yr old boy. If you could promise me 80, I'd take it in a heartbeat.

You have 23 years on me and that might mean you had 23 more years to form some solid habits more like your ancestors and less what the Standard American Diet (SAD) resembles for my adulthood. Surely, you must be shocked when you see what the kids eat today.

Of course some things are hereditary but that doesn't always equate to destiny. What science has shown that much of what we do ends up activating SNPs like switches and turns them on or off and that then creates an ailment for us.

I think AF causality is probably in having those SNPs and having done something (maybe not known or documented) that turned AF on for you and your family. Mother nature is a mad scientist.

I never wrote that all of us are here because of obesity or laziness. I wrote many (not all):

While AF has many causes - many of us are here in this forum, seeking help as a result of obesity linked OSA, resultant hsCRP and/or glycated heart tissue caused by repeated chronic insulin and glucose spikes...

Let's also bring up the concept of TOFI (thin outside, fat inside) where people have a normal appearance but large amounts of visceral fat, high inflammation as a result of eating too much fructose. These people can be metabolically ill but because most MDs don't order labs for insulin (even better, Kraft pre-diabetes protocol) or IL6, hsCRP etc. their true condition isn't known.

Bottom line 80 is good and you sound like you're making the best of it with a high quality of life. Cheers to you.

I'll take 80 any day.]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 23:55:46 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174297#msg-174297 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174297#msg-174297
I also believe that AF is in our DNA, my mother had AF, also my grandmother, I had AF for 20 years, it was only a few times a year then I got it a little more frequently. The first AF was because I became hyper thyroid, then in October of last year (2019) I again went into having a hyper thyroid episode that put me into Persistent AF, I was to go into the hospital this past March to see how I responded to Tikosyn then if it didn't cardiovert me the hospital would do it, but it is an elective procedure so it has been canceled.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but I believe that in some of us no matter what we do we get AF. I have never been fat, I have always worked hard raising a large garden from which I also can and freeze the produce. I also have all kinds of berries and fruit trees, I take care of everything, cut my lawn and I am now in my Eightes. The only meds I ever took was a thyroid med, now since I am in persistence AF I have to take a blood thinner (never took it until now). So, I am not fat, work physically hard, I don't eat in Resturants, or buy canned foods, I cook everything myself. I have tried many things, take supplements etc.
.
My point is AF is a strange malady, some things might help some people or they will not. The whole point of my story is I believe DNA is what has caused my AF, not any of the other things you have written about. Also, my Graves disease (hyper thyroid) is from Dad, he had that.

Liz]]> Elizabeth AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 19:04:19 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174289#msg-174289 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174289#msg-174289 NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 16:27:36 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174287#msg-174287 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174287#msg-174287
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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
Carey - there would be no Nobel prize for it because it's so widely known already.

It most certainly is not. You might be convinced about certain theories, but the scientific community is not. The number of views on youtube videos has no scientific value.

Anyway, my point was if you want to talk about obesity, diet, etc unrelated to AF then please take it to the general health forum.]]> Carey AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 15:16:22 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174285#msg-174285 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174285#msg-174285
I wouldn't be writing such things if I didn't think they might help others. The important thing is to at least open up and consider the information. The short period I was on a statin, I tolerated well with one exception. It raised my CAC score exponentially and as often the case. When I finally realized it by reading the research, watching the videos, and questioning my own belief in MDs and especially cardis - almost all statin pushers and with good reason.

Feel free to look up your MD here or a statin advocate and see how much $$ they get from pharma.

Steve Nissen famous Cleveland Clinic pro-statin advocate took in $111,968 in 2018.

[projects.propublica.org]]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 13:23:47 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174282#msg-174282 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174282#msg-174282 Joe AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 07:32:05 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174281#msg-174281 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174281#msg-174281 NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 05:38:31 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174278#msg-174278 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174278#msg-174278
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NotLyingAboutMyAfib
Carey - fair enough. I'm here to be helped and help if I can others with afib.

Not to debate the results of AHA, ADA, and USDA guidelines as one only needs to look at a photo of typical beach scene of Americans in 1970 and one today. If the guidelines and experts are as outstanding as Safire believes then why do all of the metrics diabetes, heart disease, obesity, high blood pressure show exponential increases and inflection points since McGovern and the USDA issued the first set of guidelines?

I think it's great you're here to help those with AF and help yourself as well, but I think you're veering way off the AF course and focusing on general diet and nutrition issues that are only tangentially related to AF, at best.

As for the dramatic rise in obesity we've seen since 1980-ish, if you can prove a cause for that then I recommend that you publish immediately and collect your Nobel prize (and million dollars). I have my own theories about that, and they might not be too far from yours, but blaming the AHA, ADA, and USDA aren't among them. Those people are mainly dedicated scientists who follow the information available to them at the time. They're not incompetent or corrupt. Do politics and money get involved at times? Sure, anyone who thinks otherwise would be naive, but all in all I think they're the most trustworthy sources we have. Are they overly conservative? Oh, sure, absolutely. But if you were giving advice to 300 million people would you be otherwise?]]> Carey AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 04:42:35 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174277#msg-174277 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174277#msg-174277 NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 04:11:47 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174276#msg-174276 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174276#msg-174276
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safib
I will respond briefly and then you can have the last word if you like.

Your rant against the AHA and ADA and I guess also the USDA is without merit. The investigators (clinicians, statisticians) involved in the studies behind their recommendations are overwhelmingly highly qualified and dedicated professionals who are subject to rigorous peer review. They are not part of some large conspiracy to defraud the public. They are fully aware of how the studies were designed and how the results were analyzed and reported. The vast majority of them are in academia and are not well paid, and wouldn't risk their tenure to fatten someone elses pocket. A few quotes or citations from some contrary individuals and studies doesn't negate the overwhelming statistical evidence of the benefit of statins for reducing serious cardiovascular events, particularly in certain demographics, and through the reduction of LDL and other mechanisms as well.

Now if you read my comment closely, although I am disputing your viewpoint my statement about "wild accusations" concerns your attempt to stigmatize the AHA and ADA and USDA, organizations which support the public health. I did not mean to suggest that you are against vaccines. Rather, I was pointing out that the same type of language is used by the anti-vaxers, and there is great risk in using that kind of language to shape public opinion, especially right now.

This site doesn't have "likes" or upvotes and downvotes, but if it did this would get a thumbs up from me. This is a well-written explanation of why I also disliked those comments.]]> Carey AFIBBERS FORUM Fri, 03 Apr 2020 00:30:27 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174275#msg-174275 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174275#msg-174275 safib AFIBBERS FORUM Thu, 02 Apr 2020 23:21:26 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174274#msg-174274 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174274#msg-174274 safib AFIBBERS FORUM Thu, 02 Apr 2020 22:33:12 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174269#msg-174269 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174269#msg-174269
Do you think there is a possibility that making the sudden leap from the amount of D in a Centrum (1000 IU) to 10,000 IU would be more likely to cause AF than to slowly increase it over time?

If it turns out D is my issue, I will want to stay in NSR for a while to focus on other 'usual suspects' and already being addressed

hsCRP levels coming down

no longer any issues with glucose or insulin

reduction of visceral and periocardial fat

But consider raising D levels after heart has been normal for some time (months)]]> NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Thu, 02 Apr 2020 18:23:49 +0000 https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174268#msg-174268 Re: A complete 180 thought - AF vitamin D and Calcium https://www.afibbers.org/forum/read.php?9,174144,174268#msg-174268 NotLyingAboutMyAfib AFIBBERS FORUM Thu, 02 Apr 2020 18:14:26 +0000